Leaving Normandy-Bordeaux to the French

Its a gutsy play!  I can see the logic in the plan.  But heres my concern:

You would need to keep German aircraft availible to strafe the Atlantic.  I know they are primarily used for this type of action already, but I like to shift aricraft to the East after the fourth round and have them assist with the Russian front (or the Med if needed)

There is also something unsettling about having the Allies establish a beach head in Europe.  This is a more psycological advatage to allied players that might see a crack in the Atlantic wall and become more determined to invest troops there, rather then look to the long loop through Africa.  You can run strafe missions on those allied ships, but like we say at our games “the best way to protect a Battleship, is with another Battleship”.  Its just a matter of time before those transports are protected by numerous and superior US surface ships.

By allowing it to remain under French control, you open your line and need to place troops in defense along three territories, rather then two.  By creating a wall along Normandy, with stacks of Infantry and AA guns, it reads like a “CLOSED” sign to the Allied forces.  Any attempt to break that line will need to be mounted with a large number of troops from the Allies.  Bare in mind that the US has had three turns to invest in this plan and will have plenty of assests lined up to carry it out.

Overall its not that crazy.  I would consider trying it, and might even give it a shot myself.

I think it may also put an additional strain on Italian resources earlier on the game.  Working with the Italian player, we usually work it out so that he can focus on the North African Campain while I hold Europe.  Just until the Italians get established and begin to puch East into the Middle East.

At first look, it seems crazy.

But, if you plan on going for a Pacific win, it could be a great diversion to get the US player to stack the atlantic.

I would be worried about allied fighter stacks though…but it would all depend on how your battle went in France on G1…

If you think the Allies will be coming in force early (ie japan declares war J1), then it may make sense to avoid the whole issue of having them mobilize units there.  Otherwise take Normandy G1 or G2 and prepare France to counterattack when they land.

Sorry… I got distracted by the bad idea t-shirt and forgot what I was gonna say

I just don’t think denying the US 1 minor IC is worth the 10 IPC you’d lose from it over 4 rounds of controlling it as Germany.

Particularly when you consider the fact that assuming the French Ftr does not scramble, the French have 1 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Ftr to attack Paris, Holland or S.France and you’re going to have to maintain a force to protect all 3 in Paris from G2 forward.

Now by adding 2 Inf, 2 Art to the G1 Paris attack you may save yourself 2-3 Inf, but on G2 you’re going to have to divert some IPC in order to ensure you can effectively remove any Allied advances AND defend Paris at the same time.

I don’t know about you, but I’d rather have 2 more IPC / round for 4 rounds, and have the freedom to move more units towards Moscow than trying to game the US out of a minor IC - which generally they can take if they want it.

Granted, you may lure the US into spending more in the Atlantic than it intended to - and this strategy MAY work well in conjunction with a G1 advance into Russia and a J1 DOW.  Now the US really has to decide of the opening in Europe is worth moving on.

I see your ideas for not taking Normandy. I do agree that it’s a good idea to deny the US/UK a minor factory right there on the continent.

However, I see more cons on this. For one thing, say the US/UK does put together a landing force and lands there. If it’s still French, their entire landing force will get there intact and they can land fighters there as well, all of which could make it very hard for Germany to defeat. However, if Germany owns Normandy, the Allied landing will have to fight whatever German defenders are there which means the Allied landing force is sure to take some casualties of their own. Also, they won’t be able to land any planes there because it will be a newly captured territory. So, this will make it much easier for Germany to retake the territory.
Secondly, if Germany takes Normandy, they will control that minor factory and can place 3 new men each turn for defense. This will cost the Allies much more because they will have to build an even larger landing force + transports and be that much harder to take Normandy from Germany or to hold it from the German counterattack.

I don’t think I would leave Normandy as Germany. Good luck. Let us know how it works for you.

Just as a side note, I believe its better to stage Inf/Art in Paris and then the Mech/Armor/Aircraft in WGr.  I’d rather not defend against multiple bombards and a 1-2 US/UK punch, but instead eliminate any US aircraft that would support the landing from the battle.

It MAY be a net-zero effect as UK aircraft can land and defend at 4 vs eliminating US aircraft from supporting a landing, but letting BOTH US and UK aircraft land to reinforce a landing in Europe just smells like a bad idea to me.  I don’t want to think about trying to eliminate 2-4 US aircraft plus 4+ UK aircraft with ground forces protecting them.

You might not need to attack the combined US/UK forces in Normandy.  If you leave it French you can just pile up infantry in France and let them attack you.  They are much weaker on the attack than they are on defense because they are 2 powers.

I think wheatbeer is using this strategy against me in a league game.

Very frustrating combined with his air stack in Novograd and 7 inf 3 art in Finland keeping me out of Norway.

FYI it’s easy for the allies to ensure you almost NEVER recieve the $2 for this territory.

As Russia, I almost always convoy block this territory with my “free” sub.

Also, the trick to defeating this is simple.

Land what you know your opponent will not counter.  IE 2 or 3 units,  he doesn’t want to take this territory back from you.

The following turn you can strike at belgium with your trans + whatever you landed, OR southern france - which is a PAIN for the axis to lose.

And in terms of “his big finland force”  Just land in Norway anyway, and FORCE him to attack you, mix in an AA gun or two to make him think twice.

Better that Germans die ATTACKING British and American units, than attacking Russian ones, that’s exactly where you want him to be.

Best part is… he has to attack, or he loses the NO.

In addition to the obvious, but very useful, denial of Allied income and mIC:

1. The Allies cannot build an airbase there (which can open up a lot of options or surprise if the UK has many planes based there).

2. Germany can keep it’s planes further east.

3. If your Western front forces are positioned to counterattack France rather than counterattack Normandy, then they are closer the Germany and Italy’s capitols and major ICs.

4. Every time you retake Normandy, (depending on Allied fleet composition) you might be exposing survivors to bombardment.

@Herr:

On a side note: is Normandy-Bordeaux indeed a good place to build subs for Germany? I’d rather spend my money on land units. Why try an arms race where the Allies can easily outproduce you? Germany buys a sub, America buys a destroyer, Russia is happy � or am I missing something there?

Every DD the Allies build to counter an Axis sub is 2 IPC they lose in the economic game.  The tradeoff is 2 Inf or 1 Armor against Moscow.  However, if you can effectively force the UK to spend IPC on DD to prevent convoys, they aren’t building units to invade Europe.

So with that said, a few subs sprinkled in wins an economic cost/benefit analysis early for the Axis as DD purchased by the Allies are harmless in the grand scheme of protecting Europe and equates to less units initially landing for an inevitable invasion.

The only real question is, can Germany afford to not have a half dozen infantry or 3 armor to take Moscow.  That depends on the dice.

This is an interesting out of the box strat, so for that reason alone I like it (would most likely confuse the allies having not seen it before). With that said I think your giving up more then you benefit in the long run. The obvious is the 8-10 IPCs you won’t get for owning it G1 or G2. The other (as mentioned) is the ability to drop boats in the Atlantic. I also like to produce a couple German subs from the French coast early in the game to combined with the Luftwaffe to threaten the US fleet at Gibraltar forcing them to over build their fleet (may delay them a turn which is what you want to achieve). Those subs may just end up retreating to the Baltic or the Med, but could still be useful later even if they don’t engage the enemy in the Atlantic (making the allies over build their fleet could delay them).

I (as you) would normally not stack the Normandy coast (bombardment and allied air power too effective), I find it better to allow the landing then counter attack from Paris where I can use my own air power (it depends on what they have on the table though). Allowing them to also land the US ftrs and maybe the French ftr are more def 4’s in the battle (my counter attack) that I wouldn’t want to face.

You say you would be denying the use of the minor IC to the US so they can’t build 3 tanks there on their next turn (which is true), but I say I can deny that by taking it back before their turn comes up with the counter attack. If you leave it French you will be facing many more units in your counter attack (maybe even the French inf/art that starts there if you didn’t strafe it).

I would be interested in hearing how things went though if you do it.

How could US use that factory? If they’re taking the territory wouldn’t it become French again?

@Tortn91:

How could US use that factory? If they’re taking the territory wouldn’t it become French again?

Only if (and when) Paris is free.  It would then revert to French control.  You can see this happening in Africa.  If the Italian’s take the french spaces, and the allies liberate them, they keep control of the land and can take it’s IPCs until the French capitol is freed.

If US saw this, what’s stopping them from shipping nothing but fighters to London, while UK builds transports/land? US could land fighters in Normandy, UK sends its troops there… Am I missing something?