Question Regarding Normandy/Bordeaux

[haddon.granillo]

What’s the argument to be made to not take Normandy/Bordeaux as the Axis? I may be delusional, but I’m sure I’ve seen that idea floating around on various threads. From what I’ve seen, it had something to do with powers with occupied capitols and the IC there.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@haddon-granillo

if they get control: America can build 3 units per turn there and also establish an air base to protect the Allied fleet. Additionally they get the PUs each turn.

These benefits far exceed the little bit of total income that the Axis will get for the turns they control the territory.

[haddon.granillo]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris Understood. Thank you very much.

[barnee]

also pretty easy to convoy it and then you get no dough

[ampdrive]

@barnee If a realistic opportunity to do Sealion is on the table,I want the factory,and to a lesser extent,the NB in normandy.I also like to eliminate the french inf/art so they can’t be taking holland.If allies land in normandy later they have to be dealt with even if it is still owned by france.

[haddon.granillo]

@ampdrive Thanks for the different perspective. I’ll be sure to consider all of these factors in future games.

[haddon.granillo]

@haddon-granillo Also, where in the rules does it support that an Allied power (besides France) cannot control the territory if it has not fallen into Axis control beforehand?

[surfer]

@haddon-granillo well, I guess the best answer to that is… how would the territory change ownership? The French own it. When any other allied power lands there, it’s still French. Just like when US lands on British territory… still British

[shadowhawk]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris

If the US can take and hold normandy then germany is in trouble as well. You can see it comming and if you cant destroy the fleet without the extra airbase it wont make a difference.

Also 3 units? Thats 2 transports worth of troops. If your attacking and holding normandy those 3 units wont make a big difference.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@shadowhawk if the United States invests heavily in the Atlantic, they will eventually capture Normandy in a typical match. There is little that Germany can do to prevent it without sacrificing the more important objective of capturing Moscow or the Middle East to achieve the massive income swing.

Germany can either try to slow down the invasion by making it more expensive to have an adequately naval force and expeditionary landing force that can survive a Normandy landing, or merely prevent the initial beachhead to turn into an expanded mission to liberate all of France and threaten the German homeland.

Capturing Normandy and making it into an Axis territory does make it significantly harder to have as a beachhead since American planes can’t reinforce the ground forces in the first turn of capture. That is a big swing and a key weakness of the strategy to leave it in France’s ownership.

Leaving it in French control means the United States needs 3 more transports and a loaded aircraft carrier to provide equivalent benefit as a factory and an air base. That is an extra turn of Atlantic-side spending and we find the games in such tight balance that this could tip the balance of power in high-level matches with battle calculators to exploit any slight odds advantages.

Pros and cons of Germany taking Normandy. It is not a clear and simple decision. I expect the meta to continue to slowly evolve in OOB League matches, although sadly there are not enough high-level games in this setting to get the strategies to advance as quickly as before.

[shadowhawk]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris

Well my point is that if you can land there without the airbase to protect your fleet ( you can only build it the round after ) you dont need the airbase.

You dont need the naval base as you can use SZ110 and get the UK naval base.
And its only 2 steps away from gibraltar.

So not capturing it allows the US and UK to land planes there. But they cannot use the factory and cannot build a airbase ( but you dont need that otherwise your fleet will be destroyed on the first round you invade )

Capturing it allows germany to build subs, or DD blocker ( no normandy or W-german invasion )
Its 2 ipcs a round.

Either way the US can simply move its fleet from gibraltar -> normandy on 1 turn. Move back the next turn and at that turn ferry fresh troops from US to also gather at gibraltar. So you invade every other turn but less fleet required and more operational flexibility.

If germany cannot take back normandy the same round yea you can build 3 extra units but you can also just walk into south france and have your reinforcements ready for either zone the next turn.

Guess the game is become a bit over-analysed to the point where in dice games it comes down to dice most of the time. Its not always about if you win a combat but how you win/lose a combat.
With a fixed setup most games boil down to the same moves every turn so people tend to play it less often. And its a long game.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@shadowhawk dice games don’t come down to dice if there is a sizable skill gap which we still see even for League matches. The top players can beat the mid-tier players 95% of the time and the bottom-tier players 100% of the time.

Normandy is usually invaded when the German Luftwaffe is off in Russia providing pivotal support for a turning point move, protecting a stack and/or threatening the key Russian defensive territory. They fly back the following turn so having additional allied fleet defenses becomes crucial or else the beachhead will become overwhelmed.

[shadowhawk]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Question Regarding Normandy/Bordeaux:

@shadowhawk dice games don’t come down to dice if there is a sizable skill gap which we still see even for League matches. The top players can beat the mid-tier players 95% of the time and the bottom-tier players 100% of the time.

Normandy is usually invaded when the German Luftwaffe is off in Russia providing pivotal support for a turning point move, protecting a stack and/or threatening the key Russian defensive territory. They fly back the following turn so having additional allied fleet defenses becomes crucial or else the beachhead will become overwhelmed.

Im merely stating that with the state of the game ( which has the same starting moves ) the only difference going into round2 will be how the dice fell round1.
With nearly equally skilled players its down to dice.

When germany lets the allies have normandy and there is no threat there is also the option of taking south france for free. But thats kind of the problem isnt it, every move we can come up can be countered but not every move can be done at the same time.
Also when those airforces come back you can predict as US so your carrier can be build that turn, Or the UK can just build a carrier on demand.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@shadowhawk the US could build extra transports and loaded carriers a couple turns before to support the Atlantic theater, or he could have used the income for other strategic goals as there is never a shortage of requirements for both sides of the board.

The decision on capturing Normandy as the Axis is a difficult one and I am not suggesting that I am good enough of a player to make a definitive recommendation. An extra 10 PUs of saving can have a significant impact on the game outcome as the moves snowball later on. Do the small choices correctly in the match and the final impact on your winning odds is astronomical.

[haddon.granillo]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris Well said. I appreciate the differing views that everyone has given. I think it’s important to take all the factors into account instead of being solely focused on one strategy (like a clown). I’ll try different scenarios in future test games and see what I prefer.

[shadowhawk]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Question Regarding Normandy/Bordeaux:

@shadowhawk the US could build extra transports and loaded carriers a couple turns before to support the Atlantic theater, or he could have used the income for other strategic goals as there is never a shortage of requirements for both sides of the board.

The decision on capturing Normandy as the Axis is a difficult one and I am not suggesting that I am good enough of a player to make a definitive recommendation. An extra 10 PUs of saving can have a significant impact on the game outcome as the moves snowball later on. Do the small choices correctly in the match and the final impact on your winning odds is astronomical.

True hence why a little bad luck with dice can make a huge difference.
Sure an inf blocker hitting doesnt mather directly. but all of them hitting suddenly is 5/6inf less on the attack. Or with destroyers if it hits its another sub or plane you dont have.
Those things add up, especially if its japan going after china