Unit Lineup speculation/wish list

Given the static warfare, VCs will in all probability be irrelevant, but it gives a certain flavour to the game. Pushing the enemy into revolution is the most likely winning strategy.

If you read the wiki on the Russian Civil War, you’ll find that there were innumerable factions involved, including “Blacks” & “Greens”. I was trying to keep it simple…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

The objective of the game is for the Allied Powers to capture the capitol of either Germany, or Austro-Hungary and the Ottomans by the end of turn 13.  The Central Powers must capture any two of the Allied capitols by the end of turn 13.  Having failed to do this, it is assumed that Germany’s overseas empire is collapsing, and will therefore come to terms (resulting in a draw).  If the Central Powers have taken a capital then it is a peace in their favor, and if they do not then it is a peace in favor of the Allied Powers.

Optionally, the Central Powers can win the game if at the end of any turn their combined income is 175 or more.

An extended game can be played to turn 15 if all agree.

@Flashman:

I’m not suggesting that the game continues until the Russian civil war is fought to a finish, merely that the conditions post revolution are possible. The RCW started in 1917, and involved the Allies and Central Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_civil_war

So…

The Russian revolution occurs. We assume that Germany sends Lenin in to take control.

Russian units are now split into two factions: Bolsheviks (reds) controlled by Germany/CP, and Mensheviks (whites) controlled by the Allies. Perhaps allegiances are determined randomly; more realistically those units still on the front line are more likely to remain loyal, those surrounding Moscow to be solidly Bolshevik.

Germany gets full control of the Bolsheviks, but these units cannot operate outside Russia proper, that is essentially those areas within the modern Russian Federation. G/CP must evacuate these areas, but can move into and take possession of any other European Russian starting areas (those listed above by IL plus Finland). In reality the CP set up several puppet states, but they were firmly under CP control and supplied vast resources to their armies.

White Russian forces remain in play and controlled by the Allies, they are free to move and attack CPs and Bolsheviks anywhere.

If Reds or Whites control Victory cities (assuming these are part of the game) they still count towards winning conditions for either side.

Russian ships are subject to the same conditions; Reds can remain in any SZ adjacent to Russia proper.

New units can be built by either side under appropriate conditions (i.e keep separate incomes for each).

Since the CP will be free to throw its weight into the battles on the Western Front, the Allies will have to decide if its worth keeping the Eastern War going by sending forces into Russia, so forcing the CP to keep units there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_Intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War

A few more suggestions:

Only the CP are allowed to attack neutrals. As far as I know, the Allies didn’t do this in WWI, with the dubious exception of Persia, which was already partly occupied.

:-o Woah! Very interesting! I though when the allies invaded it was like elite squads! But looks like over 700,000 allies invaded!

Yea after the Great War ended. Another game.

It was in full swing before Germany surrendered. That was the whole point; the Allies were trying to keep the Eastern Front going to keep German armies stationed there, and take pressure off the West.

Once Germany did surrender the Western Allies soon pulled out of Russia.

Russia didn’t just drop out of the war in November 1917. The Whites, supported by the West, kept fighting both CP and Bolsheviks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Brest-Litovsk_(February_9,_1918)

Severely short of troops to spare, the British and French requested that President Wilson provide American soldiers for the campaign. In July 1918, against the advice of the U.S. War Department, Wilson agreed to the limited participation of 5,000 U.S. Army troops in the campaign, this force, which become known as the “American North Russia Expeditionary Force” [6] (a.k.a. the Polar Bear Expedition) were sent to Arkhangelsk while another 8,000 soldiers, organized as the American Expeditionary Force Siberia,[7] were shipped to Vladivostok from the Philippines and from Camp Fremont in California. That same month, the Canadian government agreed to the British government’s request to command and provide most of the soldiers for a combined British Empire force, which included Australian and Indian troops. A Royal Navy squadron was sent to the Baltic under Rear-Admiral Edwyn Alexander-Sinclair. This force consisted of modern C-class cruisers and V- and W-class destroyers. In December 1918, Sinclair sallied into Estonian and Latvian ports, sending in troops and supplies, and promising to attack the Bolsheviks “as far as my guns can reach”. In January 1919, he was succeeded in command by Rear-Admiral Walter Cowan.

AFTER THE WAR. and only 5K troops. The only part of Russia that was occupied by allied forces BEFORE NOV 1918,  were some US Marines and Japanese taking Vladivostok. The allies simply could not fight while the Great War was going on. So separate and different war.

5,000-8,000 doesn’t even represent one infantry unit. That is like a brigade let alone a division of soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Russia_Campaign

OK before the war ended about 13K troops did land, but that’s not even one infantry. ( barely a division, when 1 piece is about 12 divisions) Technically you are right, but the war really started after Nov 1918, when allied troops were freed up to fight elsewhere.

But I’m including the White Russians, who were still in effect Allied.  Moreover, the Allies should have the option of intervening in greater strength; they may see it as a better way of winning the war.
All those valuable tts like Ukraine just falling into CP hands, at the very least force the CP to have to defend those areas.

they may see it as a better way of winning the war.

The only war they were concerned with was the one where Germany occupied north east France and almost took Paris in the spring of 1918. The other war for stopping the Bolsheviks was an ancillary war at best and has no effect on the treaty they signed to end the war in the east.

Bringing in the Bolsheviks in the turn sequence for like 1-2 turns at the end of the game is not really adding anything to a game based on the Great War. Not to mention the Germans and Bolsheviks were not on the same side whatsoever.

So, you’re saying that in November 1917 Russian goes off and fight its own civil war, so we just ignore it?

G&A kept large forces in the east to occupy Ukraine, Belarus etc - what happens to them?

What if the Whites had succeeded in regaining power (they still did hold power in many places) and reopened the eastern front? To ignore the possibility distorts the game because it fundamentally changes the situation in the east. With no threat from a White revival, the CP has no need to garrison the east at all.

The Bolsheviks were de facto German allies, as they would be again in 1939-41. They would be limited to operating within Russian proper, and probably couldn’t produce new units other than inf & cav (though still using anything they got in the revolution.)
Whites can still be supplied by the Allies, and attack the CP as well as the Bolshies.

It a little like the Chinese in WWII: a Red faction supplied by the USSR, a Nationalist faction allied to the USA, and a national government controlled by Japan. Although nominally allied to the powers fighting the wider world war, they continued to fight each other for control of China. A war within a war, but not an entirely separate one.

So, you’re saying that in November 1917 Russian goes off and fight its own civil war, so we just ignore it?

The Russians were in control of affairs relating to the fighting against Germany until the time they folded and effectively surrendered. The Bolsheviks concluded peace with Germany and Russia had no further part of the Great War.

You only need rules dealing with when Russia falls, and that is hastened by German occupation of key areas. The Bolsheviks didn’t want any part of the war, they just wanted to be out of international wars and maintain control of the government.

To include them as a allied faction fighting with the central powers is a complete misguided connection; the Russian player is either fighting Germany or not. Once they are not they are out of the game to fight their own internal divisions. The analogy regarding China is only partially plausible. IN China’s case, both factions fought the Japanese. The Bolsheviks had no interest in fighting Germany and being part of that war. I don’t know of any historian who links the Great War with the Russian Civil War. They are separate conflicts and to bring them into the Great War is just adding stuff to have “more pieces to play with for craps and giggles” type of thing.

why wouldn’t Germany barge in?

Because France and England were considered the main enemy. Germany didn’t want a two front war and to rationalize its possible existence, the Schlieffen Plan was designed to knock out France and BEF in 6 weeks based on exact rail timetables and troop movements on major roads to take Paris, and then follow with a leisurely push against the Czar whom they considered would not mobilize for war so soon. Germany facing the coming of ever increasing replacements from America, knew the eastern campaign had to be wrapped up and the bulk of these forces transferred to the western front before the combined allied armies would prove too strong.

If Germany took Paris and also knocked UK out of the war, they would have moved eventually after the Bolsheviks but certainly not before the main enemy was defeated.

My guess for art, tanks and fighters

Artillery
Attack: 2
Defense: 3
Move:1
Cost: 5
Note: no support ability

Tanks
Attack: 4
Defense: 1
Move: 1
Cost: 8

Fighters
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 3
Cost: 8

I wish zeppelins and destroyers were included. Maybe they will be in a 2nd edition or pacific expansion. Also why no chemical or biological weapons? :cry:, not PC maybe
I hope Larry makes a Pacific map with Russo-Japanese and Spanish-American War scenarios. I remember reading France and Germany would have sided with Russia in the Russo-Japanese War had they not thought the UK and US would have sided with Japan. Who knows if that is true, but it would make for an interesting game US, UK, Japan vs France, Germany, Russia. Kinda like a modern version of Athens vs Sparta!

You refer to “The Russians” as thought he Bolsheviks simply staged a coup and took over the whole of the Russian Empire.

In fact “Whites” still held large areas of the south and Siberia, and the Allies wanted to help them keep the war going.

The Bolsheviks did want to get out of the war, but not at any price. Hence the treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

The simplest way to represent this is that the Bolsheviks evacuate the areas ceded to German influence (essentially those areas which are now independent of Russia), and the Germans and their Allies are free to move into them. In effect the partition of 1939 is pre-created, though the line is father east.

But non-Bolsheviks had no part of the treaty, and should be free to continue attacking the CP and Bolsheviks at will. The Allies should have the choice of supporting the Whites as much or as little as they wish. Full support might aim at restoring Imperial Russian authority by capturing/liberating Petrograd and Moscow and so restoring Russia as a full Allied partner; partial support simply at threatening German gains in Ukraine etc; no support would accept the Revolution as a fait accompli, and concentrate on the battle in the west.

So… a full set of “Red” pieces, representing revolutionaries in any country that breaks down according to certain criteria. Whatever conditions apply to Russian order collapsing should apply to all the beligerent powers. Revolts might occur in individual tts, if the local population is largely of a different nationality, placing “Blacks” (nationalist) factions in power. Almost all countries had to face rebellions of some kind.

In Russia, then, we might end up with Red Bolsheviks controlling Moscow and central Russia; Germans and Austrians occupying the Baltic States and Poland; Black Nationalists in power in the Ukraine; White Russians in the south and Siberia; and forces from 5 Allied powers occupying coastal provinces in the North. All very interesting, and totally historical.

If the Central Powers crack first, there could be a German Soviet government in Bavaria (reds); an independent Poland carved out of provinces from 3 falling empires(blacks); French troops occupying the Rhineland; and the emergence of extreme nationalist Germans fighting the reds on the streets. Again, not entirely unhistorical.
But this then becomes a little complicated; who controls the Bavarian communists?

All we need to accomplish this is new sets of “Red” and “Black” units; the Whites will be the original Russian Imperial units.

@Imperious:

So, you’re saying that in November 1917 Russian goes off and fight its own civil war, so we just ignore it?

The Russians were in control of affairs relating to the fighting against Germany until the time they folded and effectively surrendered. The Bolsheviks concluded peace with Germany and Russia had no further part of the Great War.

You only need rules dealing with when Russia falls, and that is hastened by German occupation of key areas. The Bolsheviks didn’t want any part of the war, they just wanted to be out of international wars and maintain control of the government.

To include them as a allied faction fighting with the central powers is a complete misguided connection; the Russian player is either fighting Germany or not. Once they are not they are out of the game to fight their own internal divisions. The analogy regarding China is only partially plausible. IN China’s case, both factions fought the Japanese. The Bolsheviks had no interest in fighting Germany and being part of that war. I don’t know of any historian who links the Great War with the Russian Civil War. They are separate conflicts and to bring them into the Great War is just adding stuff to have “more pieces to play with for craps and giggles” type of thing.

Regarding Stormtroopers;

I don’t like the suggestion of being able to “buy” elite infantry, rather that they are promoted with battle experience.

That is;

Whenever you win a battle as the attacker in which basic infantry survive, those infantry can be promoted to Elite/Veteran/Storm-Trooper units at the cost of 1 IPC per unit (modern equipment). You can never promote more infantry than the number of enemy units eliminated in the battle.

I would like to see Tech make an actually usefull apperance. Stuff like Strom Trooper tactics, creeping barrages and what not to make your units more effective.

Regarding Stormtroopers;

I don’t like the suggestion of being able to “buy” elite infantry, rather that they are promoted with battle experience.

Stosstrupen were extensively trained troops in infiltration tactics. It is not the case that soldiers that “won battles” would be promoted. It was not the SS. The rules do allow Germany to promote one infantry per turn into Stormtroopers, any more than that they need to buy.

“Stormtroopers in 1918
With the withdrawal of Russia, Germany moved troops from the Eastern Front to reinforce the Western Front. This allowed them to take units out of the line for retraining as storm troopers.”

Potential tech units:

3 types of fighter as discussed

Bomber

Flying Boat

Aircraft Carrier

Tank

AA Gun

Armoured Train

Germany presumably starts with Zeppelins, but can they do SBR immediately? Airships possibly a tech for other powers

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wwi+in+colour&oq=wwi+in+colour&gs_l=youtube.3..0l3.2865.5521.0.5756.13.9.0.4.4.0.291.777.8j0j1.9.0…0.0...1ac.1.8fubkHP2lbw

3 types of fighter as discussed

Bomber

Flying Boat–-seaplane

Aircraft Carrier— no such thing, it was sea plane carrier, and the planes were only for forward observation and spotting for warships

Tank

AA Gun—no such thing, not developed to the extent where they can be represented.

Armoured Train—well very marginal, this is nothing but trains with guns—certainly not a major combat unit

Germany presumably starts with Zeppelins, but can they do SBR immediately? Airships possibly a tech for other powers—yes that was the entire intention from the start–terrorize the population and have capacity for good load.