Does taking Spain with USA spell doom for the Axis?

@Cmdr:

Agreed, only I’d follow up the loss with a Mechanized Infantry/Armor blitz into open Russian land.

That is what happens typically. The reason I stage 17 units, is I move one back out of air range. Yes, I cede 5 IPCs early on, but its not too difficult to slow down blitzing. Typically, I see Russia reduced to 15 IPCs by turn 6 or so…Plenty of time to get your initial pile going. Germany will be the only one strong enough in theater to seize Moscow. Japan will have a smaller force then Germany.

The whole purpose of the “bait” is to draw the Manchurian units North and not south, cutting down mainland Asia from 32 units to 21 units which is enough to keep China alive until turn 7 or 8. Of the 21 moving towards Yunnan/Russia, 4 are typically traded away by turn 2, leaving 15(2 are in siam) vs a typical 15 Chinese inf by turn J3. With 12-16 Jap air units they cannot breach Yunnan as it also has a Chinese fighter, 7-12 Russians(depends of if air is on UK carriers) and 5-6 British units(aagun also). After turn 3, China begins marching as they have sufficient artillery to redeploy.

I like to think that if Japan does go North, they won’t be challenging the allies in the South Pacific. That may or may not be true

Also, I am not trying to focus on the Pacific side of the board, since this topic is about Spain.
This is my response on the Pacific side. I’m sure their are other responses that work.

Others may work as well, I’m trying to review the merits of Spain as an allied objective turn 4.

@Cmdr:

I evac China anyway, so baiting me would only help me.

India can be crushed just buy 2 rounds of transports and sail all your units and ships to Siam, attack on round 3.

I’m a big fan of losing capitals(under the right conditions) if it buys me the time I need to win. Lets say you do breach the UK navy and seize India, and Lets say your north Campaign helps you take Moscow, will it be in time?

It looks like 6 turns via the North route, to get fast movers from Japan/Manchuria/Korea built on turn 2 next to Moscow, if the way is clear. Lets assume your tank survives J1 and you manage to land 6 more armor/mechanized by round 2 (don’t ask me how) that gives you 7 land units and 20 air against  7 USSR builds lets say 35 units are there. A lot of people claim they have Moscow by turn 8 if I do what is proposed, making Japan’s efforts irrelevant by then. I of course think it takes longer but that’s just me, so your units would be relevant. :)
If you evac China, then you are not going for a 6 VC win, you are aiming for the 8 VC which is why liberating France becomes a problem with this Spain approach. With France and Moscow the game will not end if they hold London. The trick will be if I can get London,Egypt, Berlin, or Rome before losing Moscow.

I like to think that Berlin will tip the game in my favor since they will hold most of the USSR territories. Leaving less IPCs for Italy and Japan to drive me out.

Plus, and this is the kicker….I will be able to produce and use units with France mid to late game!! Show me another plan where the axis don’t just surrender by then. ha ;)  (humor) All I have to do is trade Moscow for France :)

@Alsch91:

Well with America going heavy Atlantic, I’m looking for the Pacific win, so I won’t be evacuating China.
That would be the best way to capitalize on the allies decision.

That is what happens typically. The reason I stage 17 units, is I move one back out of air range.

3 Armor + 5 Mech do not care about your 1 Infantry trying to stop them.  The blitzing will continue.
Assuming you DOW on Russia, I’ll turn 12IPCs into 3 mech turn 3, and deploy them to Novosibirsk turn 4. May be able to land an air unit or other units with them based on board. We’ll see if that is needed.

The whole purpose of the “bait” is to draw the Manchurian units North and not south, cutting down mainland Asia from 32 units to 21 units which is enough to keep China alive until turn 7 or 8.

Sure,  China will still be alive.  That’s not uncommon.  But they will be bottled up in one, very managable spot.  They definitely won’t be stopping my march to Calcutta.  India has to invest in its own land forces to survive, not hope that China will protect it.
We’ll I believe they can stack in Burma, forcing Japan to engage or take the sea route which may be contested.

I like to think that if Japan does go North, they won’t be challenging the allies in the South Pacific. That may or may not be true

Okay, fair enough.  This is sort of the crux of this issue.  That is to say, Japan will very much be challenging them.  In a big way, considering America won’t be putting much towards stopping them.
The first 3-4 turns they likely won’t be, later they may be. Have to see board to see if it matters.

Also, I am not trying to focus on the Pacific side of the board, since this topic is about Spain.
I’m trying to review the merits of Spain as an allied objective turn 4.

Okay, that’s more than fair; I understand that.
My point is simply that, although the Allies may see benefits to this Spain-centric strat, they will probably falter on the other side of the world.  Any strat discussion needs to consider the repercussions on other theaters that will be had.  That’s all I’m trying to do.
That is why I asked for comments. It is a fair concern, and it may prove this tactic unsound. Not claiming automatic success, just looking for another option. It may prove that this cannot be tried too early, only after America has spent 3 turns in the Pacific and then do a Spain turn 5 or 6….we’ll have to see.

Responses in Maroon above, I have yet to master the art of point by point quoting.
Thanks for your evaluation.

I’m assuming Moscow will be a focus of the axis. I am pretty much resigned to the fact that they will be pressured to retreat to Moscow with or without the far east holdings. Japan will do a good job of Knocking down their income after their 5th turn collection. I further believe that Germany is the main threat to Moscow until late game.

The question about Spain: Does it “speed” up the allies ability to make Moscow “irrelevant” or is Moscow always “relevant” because the USA cannot win on its own? Also, does it permit a trading of Moscow for Berlin, and if that occurs do the axis still have a chance of winning?

Thank you for the feedback, It will help me refine the specific plan I put together.

I’ll let you know how it turns out.

Looks like there are two or three styles to consider:

1) Conservative (especially in the east):
USA may want to focus on Japan early, then try Spain by turn 6. Specifically, I’m thinking first three productions would be needed in the Pacific, to tie in with a UK fleet and the use of an Anzac shuck to lock down Asia if that can get going by turn 7.

Russia may want to cool its jets, and let Asia play out “naturally” and focus on defense since USA will be delayed. They will prepare for a round 4 assault on Turkey to do a hit and run in order to reduce that stack or prevent Italian naval passage through the straight.

2) Hyper Aggressive: Risks early loss to Axis
USA rushes Spain Earlier than round 4: This requires vacating UK on turn 1 to permit a USA DOW turn 2 after Germany seizes London.

Since USA will be in war round 2, first production will be split, second will focus on Atlantic. Surrendering London does not force Germany to build as large of a navy, and Italy is not likely to be free to help as UK will have concentrated assets in Mediterranean. After 3 rounds of Atlantic, builds will begin against delaying Japan’s 6 cities.

USSR will go defensive, India and Anzac will go Land as the Med navy is messing with Italy.

USA will seize Portugal or Gibraltar first, then with second wave, move into Spain in force. If German is too prepared, stage 2 rounds in Portugal, then move larger force into Spain on third turn.

3) Moderate strategy
Spain on turn 4 as discussed, play test to see if viable, then move to 1 or 2 above to test results.

@Kobu:

I’ve always wanted to fight someone who would stack in Amur and the Spain thing sounds fun too. If you want a challenge right now James, I am up for it.

I’ll give it a whirl, but I am new to forum games, so you’ll likely need some patience. I can post moves every other day I believe. Do you want to create the game, and play Germany, then I’ll see if I can load the map and post my moves as well. Abattlemap is what I have, and I believe I know how to roll dice. This way, the others can watch the play and see how to respond.

I will say, its a bit of a stretch since you know what I am planning. Probably not advisable since you will likely prepare from the get go. I’ll test this idea, but I won’t let you know if I’ll do the aggressive, conservative or moderate approach.

Oh, well, if it works after you know what I am going to do, then it has merit.

Here is a sample of the Abattlemap if I can load this right, I’ll also need to learn how to update the various boxes.

sample.AAM

@Kobu:

There’s not much Axis can do in anticipation in my opinion. I’ll have Germany done tonight and PM you. I’ll need scramble orders for the attack.

Well, if you send in enough to clear in one round, I won’t scramble….the only place I would might be sz 109.
If this helps, as long as there are more than 4 pieces in 110 and 111 I’ll keep my planes on land.

3 or 4 I will have to consider. Also if you are hitting London to clear planes, and there is a sea battle to escape too, thats a good time to scramble as well :)