Does Sealion break the Game(Europe Only)

It only makes it hard for UK to go for that Italian fleet. It forces a decision. The attack itself will succeed if his AA don’t shoot a plane and your able to block any ships from blocking the two sea zones and you also defeat all ships in range, while protect your fleet.

In all honesty, it seems others have come to the same ideas as I have quite independently.  Sgtblitz has just made the same moves on me as I am doing in my latest games (and I hadn’t played him before) so I can only assume that players are coming to the same conclusions.

Hell, maybe I am missing something.

But those round robins I played, taking UK out and removing approx. $30 a turn from the Allies.  Having the $81 to spend round 4.  The fleet in sz109 to force the US to eat through it (and I leave before that happens anyway, but it forces the US to come over in strength in navy).  The 11 TTs in sz110 that can swing back at Russia w/ the buys in West Germany.  The lull in Africa to allow Italy to knock out UK in Egypt.

I think that’s tough to beat.

Again.  Maybe I’m missing something.  Barring dice, (like the game I am now playing where I failed in France turn 1  :x) if someone can shove this tactic back down my own throat, then I will believe.

But right now, I don’t want Allies w/o 4 - 5 inf in UK.

It only makes it hard for UK to go for that Italian fleet. It forces a decision. The attack itself will succeed if his AA don’t shoot a plane and your able to block any ships from blocking the two sea zones and you also defeat all ships in range, while protect your fleet.

You can’t block the G3 London attack.

If you get luck and survive with some UK ships, then you could stand in front of the Germans.  But I doubt it would prevent the Germans from pushing through - and that scenario wil not be the norm.  Likely you won’t have any ships in range except for the Gibraltar fleet.

Unless you’re really lucky in the AAs, Germany will still take UK on G3.

Which it why it stops a Taranto raid

I wonder about that.  I think you’re still better off hitting sz93.  Any planes that survive the counterattack then fly to London.

Only other option I see is hitting the German fleet in sz112 - and that is liekly to fail.

@jim010:

Fire up a game.

We’ll do low luck.

A good idea … but unfortunately I’m really really really limited in available time  :cry:

Perhaps if someone else jumps in as well to keep the pace going? Or perhaps there already is an online game posted here somewhere to see Sealion in action according to your plans? Or just giving a short summary?

runs off to work

8-)

@jim010:

But right now, I don’t want Allies w/o 4 - 5 inf in UK.

It sounds like you are taking UK on turn 3 on average. It also sounds like you are still winning the game as the axis with UK under control.

Is your question about Sealion breaking the game about a long term axis win after the fall of UK?

With Paris and London, you will still need 2 out of 3 Russian cities and Egypt.

Since the U.S. can threaten Italian control of Rome and Egypt at the same time, Italy is likely to choose to protect Rome. Unless Germany can capture 3 Russian cities, The U.S. could take Egypt. Forcing Germany to take Russia for the win. If Egypt is held when Russia falls, the U.S. has one turn to capture London.

Can the axis, build enough units to take Russia, and also enough units to defend London, Rome, and Paris from a staged U.S. fleet in Gibraltar? If the answer proves to be yes, then Sealion would break the game.

Have any of the UK players you faced chosen to build Navy instead of Land Units. Its obvious that Land units will not defend UK long term, given that conclusion its logical to force the Germans to trap their IPCs in a navy that can’t be used against Russian land units. If the Germans realize this, they can choose to build more expensive air units that can be redirected at Russia later. In which case, you have to bleed them of those units as they take the UK.

How many transports do you build in order to take UK turn 3? I found I had to stage units in Scottland first before I took it on G4. That required 11 German transports when I did it. I had to strip Europe of land units and use Italy to defend Germany from the Russian stack that took Slovakia R4. I later scrapped that test game as position was horrible for a long term win.

When I’m done tweaking this tactic, I’ll post, but I see others are already doing it as well.

I prefer to play out my ideas, rather than debate them, as without seeing a whole board, or accounting for what a board looks like after a couple turns, I can’t tell you what moves I would make.

I will say that everyone talking about conquering UK or even a couple cities in Russia doesn’t win you the game in the long run.  That reminds me of those that said if Japan conquers the US in Pacific, they still lose b/c they don’t have the remaining cities and can’t face the remaining opponents.

What exactly do people think Germany or Japan are going to do with all this newly infused cash on thier very next turn?

I will be able to play a new game in a few days.  Those of you that want to show me how its done will get a chance.

to answer the question, no. Its very simple,really–Sealion does not have to be done. Unless you are playing for money,why do you need to end a game in 10 minutes that you spent a hundred bucks on and 30 minutes setting up? There is no rule saying you have to do it. Just dont and then the game isnt broken. See how easy that was?

It would be easier to bid.

I think that destroys the spirit of the game

maybe for tournament or sentimental players but not for the average player. Larry said he included the potential for Sealion,so there is that element to the game, but there is no guarantee that it will work every time so saying the game is broken turns out to be wrong. I read somewhere that G2 Sealion will have 90% success rate. I think that is an exaggeration.

It’s not turn 2, it is turn 3, and I don’t have it at 90%, but I do have it at 80% +.

That’s 4 out of 5 games.

Jim010,

Is your G3 Sea Lion attack a done deal? Are there no buys in the game for the UK that will defeat Sea Lion? I hope this game does not have a “best” move that will always be done by Germany vs. the UK for the first 3 turns.

Instead of infantry, is it possible to buy subs/ships/planes to destroy the German navy before it attacks? Say 2 Tactical Bombers to match up the fighters and a destroyer? Or a bunch of subs to attack the fleet near the coast?

It seems wrong not be able to have some decent chance of defense when you know what is coming at you. I have only played the Global Game but the attacks you are talking about should work in both games for Germany.

Hah!  I’m full of it.  Wrong settings

Here they are again.

*note - for UK I say inf, but it is likley inf/art.  2 inf defending is better then 1 tank, so I’ll ignore tank buys.
Worst case scenario for the German is:

Germany  (worst)
11 inf, 4 tanks, 5 art, 1fht, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CR (assuming horrific losses in air at sea, and France was won w/ 1 tank)

vs

UK (best)
21 inf, 4 fht, 1 tac

Germany wins 7% w/ commonly 1 unit

Average case scenario for Germany:

10 inf, 6 tanks, 4 art, 2 fht, 2 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CR

vs

UK (average)
20 inf, 4 fht

Germany wins 71% w/ commonly 4 - 6 units

Best case scenario for Germany:

11 inf, 3 art, 8 tanks, 4 fht, 3 tac, 1 bmb, 1 BB, 1 CR

vs

UK (average)
20 inf, 4 fht

Geramny wins 99% w/ commonly 10 - 13 units

That is the math, and it is repeatable, unless I missed something.

Next turn Germnany has over $80 to spend, and the Allies have lost $28/turn.

Jim010,

Is your G3 Sea Lion attack a done deal? Are there no buys in the game for the UK that will defeat Sea Lion? I hope this game does not have a “best” move that will always be done by Germany vs. the UK for the first 3 turns.

Instead of infantry, is it possible to buy subs/ships/planes to destroy the German navy before it attacks? Say 2 Tactical Bombers to match up the fighters and a destroyer? Or a bunch of subs to attack the fleet near the coast?

It seems wrong not be able to have some decent chance of defense when you know what is coming at you. I have only played the Global Game but the attacks you are talking about should work in both game for Germany.

Try it, but I don’t think it would work.  You are building a fleet that has to withstand 1 - 3 sb, 1 CR, 1 BB, 1 CV and the planes.  My planes won’t be needed on London, as you didn’t buy ground units - not will I need as many ground units, so they can be transported elsewhere.  I might not even bother buying as many TTs.

Buying planes won’t help, as 3 defending inf is better than 1 defending fht.

I will say that I’m not 100% sure that the game is broken, but I do know that I don’t want allies.

Are you convinced that the axis automatically win after UK falls?

I still say its a race to get city 5 before the U.S. stages too much in Gibraltar. I argue that taking UK is the same as taking India in Pacific1940. Its still up to the U.S. to win or lose the game. If its a close game, then no, taking UK does not break the game.

If you always win as the axis after a UK fall, then yes it would be broken. But I believe the game still has to be played out. Here is why:

Lets say you take UK with 10 units….Lets say you maintain 60 IPCs or more as Germany. How do you take Russia, with 20 land units used in UK, we agree you lost 10 of them or 30 IPCs in value. You captured around 30 IPCs. The axis are now up 8 IPCs and allies down 28 IPCs. However, you are not in position to engage Russia. They should be stacked in E. Poland waiting to hit Slovakia turn 4 with 32+units. You will have 92 (52+30captured+10NOs) to spend on round4. You can place potentially 3 units in Germany, 10 in W.Germany, 10 in France, and 10 units in London(99 IPCs if you built infantry at each). Now that you have UK, you will have to build there to hold it in later rounds. Which factories do you place your 92 IPCs of units at? Unless you had Italy moving to Germany from round1, you may place 92 dollars in units, only to lose your capital for 1 round before you liberate it. Lets say you had enough to defend Germany, then the game looks like this:

Lets agree its the end of round 4, the allies have 67+28=95+2R.inf and the axis have 52+15=67+20NOs=87(assumes 2 Italy NOs). (Without Egypt axis will have 82)

You are not only being outproduced, but what you do produce has to engage Russia and protect 4 major factory sites: Rome,W.Germany,N. Italy ,and London. You also have to protect 4 potential major factory sites: Norway,Sweden,Belgium, and S. France. Thats not mentioning the minor factory in Normandy or the potential site at Denmark. Sounds like a game still.

We can assume you will eventually take Egypt with Italy as UK can not produce.

It cost the US 14 IPCs to place 1 art and 1 inf in Gibraltar. It costs the axis 21 IPCs to place 1 inf and 1 art. in 3 strategic zones(France,Rome, and Finland) able to counterattack an allied landing in Continental Europe. Add 6 more IPCs to hold London. Therefor, 14 US IPCs require 21 (if you don’t care to hold London) or 27 axis IPCs to counter. Does it still look like the axis have it won?

@jim010:

It’s not turn 2, it is turn 3, and I don’t have it at 90%, but I do have it at 80% +.

That’s 4 out of 5 games.

so every time you play you will do the same thing? how fun is that?  :roll:

Hi guys,
finally i managed it to register here in this fine forum  :-D

So from my point of view Sea Lion (if its really sucsessful) is not breaking the game.
I agree that it will be very hard to crack up Russia in the east and defend against the USA in west , north or south. I only played AAE40 once and my Sea Lion was totally wiped out by the UK fleet in round 2. I had extrem bad luck with the dice so only damaged his CV, leaving my transports in the baltic only one transport operation left before they sunk to the ground. But besides that I dont see how my fleet should make it when UK gets it CV from gibraltar to UK sourrounding sea)

After that I saw no real chance to get into offensive against Russia (an experienced player) without riskin to much…

The only positve point was that Italy could walk relative freely in the med an controlled nearly all of it. But after the US taking Gibraltar back ITALY had to go very defensive from that point and become sitting ducks like the germans, so I surrendered start of Round 7.

@Jim010,
I dont know how you could make it to actually land (invade) with your transports on G3. In my game I bought as GER 1CV , 1TR and a Sub on G1. on G2 I moved my ships out of the baltic and they were crushed there at once by the UK fleet. I think if UK concentrates on defeating the german fleet they can prevent much better the sea lion operation than with building Inf units in UK. UK player build 2 Cruisers in UK1. Hit me with 3 Cruisers (i let the one in front of baltic/norway along with the french cruiser escape - thats was a possible failure in my 1 turn) 3 Planes 1 Tactical 2 Destroyers and the CV against a Battleship (damaged) a CV with 2 Fighters, a cruiser and a sub.