Italy a bad design

@ll:

Ok, played through turn 1 last night. On G1 I sent 2 subs against the UK Carrier group, ended up losing both subs while only damaging the CV (the Tac landed in Gibralter).  On UK1 a combined fleet of 2 DDs, the Egyptian Fighter, the Tac and the damaged CV recreated Taranto taking out the SZ 95 fleet while losing a DD.  Italy struck back on her turn with her remaining air and sea units taking out the UK fleet losing a fighter.  The French fleet then wiped out the remaining Italians (damn bad rolling on Italy’s part).

At this point I think Italy just has to accept her fleet getting destroyed, and rely on either rebuilding (I’d go all subs first to make the Med dangerous for the Allies) or concentrating on air power to control the Med.  At the end of turn 1, Italy had S. France, Bulgaria, Taken back 1 French African Territory (I forget the name), Sudan and 1 other UK east Africa Territory and overrun Alexandria.  They are in decent shape in Africa and can likely take Egypt on I2.  The Allies control the Med right now, but have no way of reinforcing the land battle in Africa.  An Italian fleet may need to wait, or be all subs till the Med is cleared out with German help.

Italy is MEANT to be a challenge, even for the veteran A&A player…. I think its a good challenge too.

How did UK attack with 2 DD’s? Where did the other one come from? Also, the carrier gets repaired by the naval base at gibraltar, so the planes can land on the carrier with the French Med fleet.

My bad, I meant the cruiser off Egypt.  And I knew we would get some rules wrong/forget some- like the repair one.

My point is still that Italy needs to concentrate on the land battle in Africa and build up her air force well before rebuilding her fleet in the Med.  It seems to just be a fact of the game.  She’ll still need German help to clear the Med as well.

@ll:

Ok, played through turn 1 last night. On G1 I sent 2 subs against the UK Carrier group, ended up losing both subs while only damaging the CV (the Tac landed in Gibralter).  On UK1 a combined fleet of 2 DDs, the Egyptian Fighter, the Tac and the damaged CV recreated Taranto taking out the SZ 95 fleet while losing a DD.  Italy struck back on her turn with her remaining air and sea units taking out the UK fleet losing a fighter.  The French fleet then wiped out the remaining Italians (damn bad rolling on Italy’s part).

At this point I think Italy just has to accept her fleet getting destroyed, and rely on either rebuilding (I’d go all subs first to make the Med dangerous for the Allies) or concentrating on air power to control the Med.  At the end of turn 1, Italy had S. France, Bulgaria, Taken back 1 French African Territory (I forget the name), Sudan and 1 other UK east Africa Territory and overrun Alexandria.  They are in decent shape in Africa and can likely take Egypt on I2.  The Allies control the Med right now, but have no way of reinforcing the land battle in Africa.  An Italian fleet may need to wait, or be all subs till the Med is cleared out with German help.

Italy is MEANT to be a challenge, even for the veteran A&A player…. I think its a good challenge too.

This was a faulty test.  Using 2 SUBs against the UK Gibraltar fleet is crazy dumb.  The German air power from W. Germany needs to be used against the UK/French fleet before you use the remaining Italian fleet like that(Italian fleet does mop up only).  If you choose not to use German air in that way, then send the Italian fleet as far east as possible(invade Transjordan with 1INF and 1ARM), UK/France will not be able to use the naval base in S. France since Italy takes it before F1/UK2.

Instead of counterattacking the UK med fleet, I am thinking of moving the Italian fleet (if sz97 is not touched) to sz98 and take Cyprus.

Build one Fig for Italy.

If the UK chases, then the German air power could threaten the Uk fleet or Italy could counter on I2
Men on Cyprus could move to Egypt or Alexandria on I2 if it is not beefed up.

@jeffdestroyer:

Instead of counterattacking the UK med fleet, I am thinking of moving the Italian fleet (if sz97 is not touched) to sz98 and take Cyprus.

Build one Fig for Italy.

If the UK chases, then the German air power could threaten the Uk fleet or Italy could counter on I2
Men on Cyprus could move to Egypt or Alexandria on I2 if it is not beefed up.

Why Cyprus? Why not Syria?

Whereas I have not been able to look at this issue in-depth yet, I would just caution people from jumping down the throats of people who make early balance claims. :)

One of my first posts when AAP40 came out was ‘So…how do the Allies win again?’ and I claimed that Japan had a tremendous advantage. I was immediately attacked by all these people who proclaimed that I couldnt know anything that early and how we had weak Allied players or how we were making assumptions about this or that etc etc etc. Well I gave up trying to convince people and came back 3-4 months later and lo and behold…everyone was complaining about how unstoppable Japan was lol.

The point being that yes, many claims about balance will obviously be premature at this point, but it’s certainly possible to see various trends even this early in the game’s life cycle.  :)

@calvinhobbesliker:

@jeffdestroyer:

Instead of counterattacking the UK med fleet, I am thinking of moving the Italian fleet (if sz97 is not touched) to sz98 and take Cyprus.

Build one Fig for Italy.

If the UK chases, then the German air power could threaten the Uk fleet or Italy could counter on I2
Men on Cyprus could move to Egypt or Alexandria on I2 if it is not beefed up.

Why Cyprus? Why not Syria?

Either would be fine, depending on the forces available in Egypt to counterstrike and the location of the TR that started in sz98. It might be in the Red Sea.
Syria might be better in order to move into Pro Axis Iraq.

@Uncle_Joe:

Whereas I have not been able to look at this issue in-depth yet, I would just caution people from jumping down the throats of people who make early balance claims. :)
The point being that yes, many claims about balance will obviously be premature at this point, but it’s certainly possible to see various trends even this early in the game’s life cycle.  :)

Well said!! It does look like Italy will get the short end of the stick without help from Germany. It also looks like threatening Sealion may help to save the Italian fleet……only time will tell. Also many people on these forums will attack Italy’s fleet UK1, but how many average Joe gamers who do not venture on the forums will actually do it?

I am guessing it will be roughly a 50/50 split, and will depend on the player. So at this point at least global is dependent on player moves, and not only the setup like revised. There seem to be many more options in AA40 than revised and limits the ammount of set opening moves. Many of these theories depend heavily on the G1 turn, and how the UK responds. So in my book that is a step forward from previous versions of the game.

I really don’t see why people automatically assume the Italians WILL start off without their western fleet before they start. I’ve simulated, multiple times, the UK attacking it with a fighter, tac. bomber, cruiser, and destroyer. Sometimes the UK wins but at great cost; sometimes it destroys the Italian ships without so much as a scratch. Other times the Italians would whoop the Brits back to England; other times they would be completely obliterated.

It really depends on the dice. The only way the UK increases its chance of winning is if it brings the carrier into the fray to soak up damage, in which case the planes would have nowhere to land if the carrier gets damaged. Honestly, I discourage a UK attack on the Italian fleet on UK1. Bring up the Gibraltar fleet with the French fleet, and get the UK fighter to land on the carrier. The Italians will think twice before attacking this combined Allied flotilla.

What about the Germans? Well, it all depends on whether they want to use the Luftwaffe to immediately try to take out the Allied fleet in the Med, or transfer the planes east for an imminent invasion of the USSR. It also depends on how much of the Luftwaffe survives the attack on France and the British navy.

I dunno.  I really think the UK1 Taranto raid is overpowered.  There’s no reason to send the AC back to England since it will get wiped out by the Germans’ surviving subs and airforce, the French fleet support in SZ 93 makes the Italians and Germans think twice about attacking the loaded carrier on Round 2 (and they have very limited/expensive units to counterattack with in the Med), plus on UK1 Britain HAS to build all inf anyway to prevent a Sealion attempt and has no money to fortify the AC stack against the German subs and air.  The raid is the only reasonable choice an experienced A+A player can make, and its OP since there’s really no counter.

That being said, how do the Axis get around it?  I’m think maybe Germany could build a minor IC in Yugoslavia or S. France and start pumping 3 subs a round + a CV every now and then into the Med to bolster the Italians weakened fleet.  It will end up getting very expensive however, building 1/3 of Germany’s IPCs into navy, plus the units will be far away from Britain and have a hard time getting through Gibraltar into the Atlantic once the Allies capture it with US’s 82 IPCs a turn (I don’t see Italy/Germany outpacing the UK and US for loaded transports to send to Gibraltar to take it, much less hold it).

Perhaps the Germans could try invading Spain with their forces leftover in France?  This way they could send masses of infantry built in France/W. Germany into Gibraltar without needing transports.  Yes, the other neutral countries will become Pro-Allied, but Sweden is probably a lost cause anyway once the German Baltic fleet gets toasted, and if the Italians are smart the UK won’t have a transport in range/available in the Med to activate Turkey.  The real downsides will be that Germany will have the N/B coast to defend, Spain’s coast to defend, AND Gibraltar’s coast to defend!  Prob at the start it won’t be too bad, but once the US gets going I don’t know how the Germans are going to hang on to all three w/o severely weakening its attacks on Russia.  But its still an option.  If you could get a stack of 10 inf into Gibraltar with reinforcements available through Spain and France it’d take a hell of a long time before the Allies could get you out.

@Stockus13:

@Uncle_Joe:

Whereas I have not been able to look at this issue in-depth yet, I would just caution people from jumping down the throats of people who make early balance claims. :)
The point being that yes, many claims about balance will obviously be premature at this point, but it’s certainly possible to see various trends even this early in the game’s life cycle.  :)

Well said!! It does look like Italy will get the short end of the stick without help from Germany. It also looks like threatening Sealion may help to save the Italian fleet……only time will tell. Also many people on these forums will attack Italy’s fleet UK1, but how many average Joe gamers who do not venture on the forums will actually do it?

I am guessing it will be roughly a 50/50 split, and will depend on the player. So at this point at least global is dependent on player moves, and not only the setup like revised. There seem to be many more options in AA40 than revised and limits the ammount of set opening moves. Many of these theories depend heavily on the G1 turn, and how the UK responds. So in my book that is a step forward from previous versions of the game.

Well said indeed!  So much of these various strategies discount a huge factor- THE DICE!  Sometimes the dice hate you no matter what, it happens.  In my case, as a poster pointed out, the “crazy dumb” strategy of attacking the UK CV with subs- theres a shot it could take out the CV.  Is it a good shot? No.  Did it work?  Not this time.  Will I try it again?  Yes.  (partly because I HATE the tactic of using “fodder” to soak hit, like the old tactic of bringing a ton of empty transports).  Honestly I totally missed the idea of pulling the Italy fleet East to try and save it.  Probably because I was sooo focused on taking out the UK threat in the Med at any cost.  The idea is a good one I may try later.  I have another game scheduled next friday, I’m curious how my usual opponent will react- he usually plays the Allies, he might try to save the UK fleet.

The greatest thing about this new version is there ARE so many options, there is no right way or wrong way.

Well sort of…

UK will make this attack a standard move and take out Italian navy and nothing can be done about it except poor dice. This does not give Italy “various options” but rather less or more narrow options.

Germany taking out pretty much the entire UK fleet in THE SAME OPTION Germany had since 2nd edition. Its the same old theme replayed where every has a big fleet and it gets nuked on the first turn.

This is ridiculous because its the same thing they set up in every game. Makes it boring because your either stuck with no navy and will never get it back ( Germany and Italy) , or you must rebuild the navy in order to even get going in the game ( UK, USA, and Japan).

I don’t know why the first turn is always set up with alot of death and placing the ships in harms way, rather than have them out of reach allowing for more real options.

Yeah, Larry should have pushed the UK fleet either back behind England where it couldn’t be attacked effectively G1, or have stacked the hell out of everything into a massive SZ 110 Channel battle (they’re supposed to be evacuating Dunkirk, right?)…  3-4 subs + all of Germany’s air vs. 2 BB 3 DD 1 CV 1 TAC and 2 CA in SZ 110 would have made a much more entertaining G1 than the spread out boondoggle we’ve got now!

Hmmmm, well in case the UK does not want to do the Italy attack, or sit in Gibralter and chance a German or Itailian attack they could take the carrier up to Canada….

This obviously depends on the German sub placement, but you could build Infantry in the UK to deter the Sealion threat, and have a safe harbor in Canada to rebuild your navy.

Just a thought.

Played up until turn 4. Germany’s Sealion attempt has 5 INF, 5 ART, 1 Bomber, 3 TAC and 4 FGT vs. 11 UK INF, 1 French INF, 3 FGT and 1 SB. AA gun did nothing. First round dice rolls were par. Second and third rounds NONE of my German planes hit. NONE. Germany built 4 transports first round. By the end of turn 3 the Germans had no fleet other than a couple of Subs as a result of Sealion failing miserably when I TOTALLY should have taken it, but at this point it’s game over as the UK player had been building up his fleet in New Brunswick and the Americans were following suit.

Only positive affect of this was that the UK did not go for the Italian Fleet in UK1 and as a result the Italians were kicking butt, with their full fleet plus an additional transport. By the end of Turn 3 they had the all of North Africa, plus TJ, Syria, South France, Egypt, Bulgaria, Greece and Iraq and were collecting 36 with NO.

Meaningless though. In a game were the Axis start off with less money from the start and it takes so long for the Axis to catch taking territory - which takes so much longer in this game, I’m really looking forward to seeing my first post where somebody claims to have acheived Axis victory. Even if the Germans were successful with Sealion in this game (which they should have been - read above and do the math) it still doesn’t matter because despite the extra IPCS from taking Britian they have wasted so much money that should have gone towards beefing up the Babarossa offensive - and this was in a game where the Japanese declared war on Russia straight away and had units in Yukuts by turn 3.

1941 finally resolved the 3 on 2 flaw that all the other incarnations of AA had by bringing Italy into the game and making it a proper 3 vs. 3. 1940 has gone back on this and made it 6 vs. 3. France doesn’t really count of course, but despite the massive fleet and air power the Japs have they have WAY too much to do on the mainland and the Atlantic and the American NO just adds insult to injury.

We never played with NO in 1941 after a couple of games because we found that it favoured the Axis too much. Without favours the Allies but it was more balanced as a result because the Allied strats were harder to coordinate. We found it made for a better game despite Italy seriously struggling for income.

After a few more games of 1940 we might be coming to this same conclusion. America can never be taken - EVER, unless of course everybody else is out of the game, so the last thing they need is +30 IPCS per turn. Long term without the NO Normady will happen in 1944 - when it should have happened. So far in this game, and again I admit my experience in this one is as limited as everybody else is, I see the Normady campaign happening WAY earlier and there is absolutely nothing the Axis can do about it.

2 cents.

I don’t think it’s inevitable that the RN is going to get destroyed in G1.  The first game I played saw not one but two naval attacks on my fleet repulsed.  I moved the BS, two cruisers, destroyer, and transport that survived into 109.  I supplemented the force w/ two destroyer purchases.

I attacked the Italian navy.  The next turn my navy in 109 was sunk at the cost of most of the Luftwaffe for my opponent.  The UK carrier was sunk by the Italian counterattack.  The french got the Italian survivors.  And so it goes.  In hindsight I could have moved the RN away from the coast and placed the two destroyers by Canada.  Or I could have reinforced it with the CA and had a real fleet to threaten Germany with from the beginnning.

general jason…why did your UK player decide not to attack the German fleet? with the CV, DD, TAC from Gibraltar, and the 3FTR’s in UK?  How did Germany destroy the two CA’s in 112?..ie…did the German fleet come into 112?  If not, then why did the UK player not block 112 with the DD from Gibraltar?