Italy a bad design

Ah yes, AAG40 is hours old.  Some games started, FEW game actually finished to completion, and already the ‘I declare it is broken because I am so smart and can predict the future’ claim has started. :roll:

Whereas I agree that understanding the game in its entirety will take many many hours of play, it’s very hard to find a silver lining for the Axis in this situation.  I’ve had the game since Thurs and have played 6 games and counting so far.  Each one Italy has been quickly and efficiently shut down with very little effort through a variety of means.  This is arguably the best way to do it, and there’s not really any downside to the move that I can see personally.  I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.

I too would like to see a strat that solves that problem.

Allow time to answer the problem.

If not, then a setup change (Errata) will do it.

@BadSpeller:

And so the Great Debate starts….“the best G1 purchases and moves are…”! :-)

And so the GRAND BELLYACHING begins.  Noone is happy with anything in this forum.  For chrissakes…

ANYWAYS, the Italian Navy only dies if Germany allows it to.  IF on G1 the German Luftwaffe hits SZ 110 and the Germans send 2 U-boats to SZ 106 and 3 to SZ 109 it leaves the British in a very tough situation.  If it sacrifices that carrier (and especially destroyer) to kill the Italian Navy then it will undergo 3 IPC convoy disrupt from Canada and 6(!) IPC convoy disrupt from UK itself.  That is 9 bucks A TURN for potentially a very long time.

Besides, the Italians get two different sea zones with transports if I’m not mistaken so at least one should probably survive even with an all-out UK assault.  AND after Italy takes Greece and Southern France and grabs Egypt, and when the Germs or Japs get their air force around to killing the Allies’ Med fleet, they get 27 BUCKS A TURN.  That’s no small amount in my humble estimation. Cruiser/Destroyer/Transport every turn.

Though maybe I’m just a complete idiot and you whiners are the smart people in the room.  I must be totally wrong about this because noone here ever complains if there isn’t a great reason to.

@robbie358:

@BadSpeller:

And so the Great Debate starts….“the best G1 purchases and moves are…”! :-)

And so the GRAND BELLYACHING begins.  Noone is happy with anything in this forum.  For chrissakes…

ANYWAYS, the Italian Navy only dies if Germany allows it to.  IF on G1 the German Luftwaffe hits SZ 110 and the Germans send 2 U-boats to SZ 106 and 3 to SZ 109 it leaves the British in a very tough situation.  If it sacrifices that carrier (and especially destroyer) to kill the Italian Navy then it will undergo 3 IPC convoy disrupt from Canada and 6(!) IPC convoy disrupt from UK itself.  That is 9 bucks A TURN for potentially a very long time.

Besides, the Italians get two different sea zones with transports if I’m not mistaken so at least one should probably survive even with an all-out UK assault.  AND after Italy takes Greece and Southern France and grabs Egypt, and when the Germs or Japs get their air force around to killing the Allies’ Med fleet, they get 27 BUCKS A TURN.  That’s no small amount in my humble estimation. Cruiser/Destroyer/Transport every turn.

Though maybe I’m just a complete idiot and you whiners are the smart people in the room.  I must be totally wrong about this because noone here ever complains if there isn’t a great reason to.

I do not know you, but I like you Robbie.

Let’s hope you’re right about the Italian navy. Italy looks so exciting to play… :-D

Germany needs the carrier and some transports. UK can build infantry so the attack will need to consider the resources Germany can bring on G2 or even G3.

German planes need to land in Norway to protect the bomber which was used to kill the far UK fleet assets on G1

You’re not an idiot at all and your plan has its merits, but using the Lutwaffe in force on 110 could critically weaken your attack on France (I personally don’t feel comfortable going in there without at least an extra 2 plans to swing the odds further in your favor but that’s just my playstyle) and perhaps even more importantly it leaves the Battleship and Cruiser in 111 unscathed (the cost of rebuilding said units is probably about a wash with comparison to the convoy disruption you could reasonably expect to pull off).  Meanwhile, the other half of the Italian fleet dies the following turn, giving them effectively zero chance of taking Egypt as the Indian fighters land to reinforce it.  All of this is dwarfed by the fact that around turn 5 the American Mega Fleet of Doom is knocking on the door to Rome and Italy is completely incapable of marshalling the forces to stop it even if it plays flawlessly up to this point.  Believe me, I’m not whining and I hope it doesn’t come off sounding like it I am.  I think most of the concerns raised here so far are pretty valid and part of the beginning stages of balancing the game.  Italy has some serious issues accomplishing any of its objectives due to a weak starting position, weak economy, and the fact that it takes its turn after GB.

So no one has commented that this all seems pretty reasonable.

The Italians fight like the French.

Given the Italians and Germans can kill most things left in the med on I1 and G2, Italy can get a NO, and start to build up its navy. I think the issues is that Taking Egypt comes at the expense of building that navy. I’m pretty sure that Germany needs to consider helping out in the Med and using a minor IC in either Yugoslavia or Southern France to help build a carrier with planes to help defend the Med. That being said, I’ve only played Europe to date.

I agree with the statement that Germany could build an IC somewhere on the Med Sea and in that way help the Italians out. You can also send in an inf to get the Egypt NO (or is that only with the Europe variant?). I would build an IC in the Eastern Med, because then it can also be used as a stagepoint for Barb.

@AA_fourlife:

didn’t the italy navy suffer big losses in real life?

Yes, at Taranto. I’m not sure of the precedent to Britain losing 3 destroyers, 2 cruisers, and 2 battleships G1

GB attacking Italy Fleet turn 1 with AC, Destroyer, Fighter and TB is a no brainer. Build a small IC in Egypt that same turn and the Med./Africa conflict is over…

You can claim I’m being premature, but I know a game flaw when I see one…

@TexCapPrezJimmy:

GB attacking Italy Fleet turn 1 with AC, Destroyer, Fighter and TB is a no brainer. Build a small IC in Egypt that same turn and the Med./Africa conflict is over…

You can claim I’m being premature, but I know a game flaw when I see one…

Don’t bring the carrier. That way, you survive with 2 planes and land them with the French Med Fleet. This way, if Italy plans to take Vichy, it will get no ipcs for it

I just think we are missing something. Maybe Germany has to take egypt. In the war the Germans had to head to North Africa to bail the Italians out.

NO German in Egypt  for a reason???

@Bodeacious:

I just think we are missing something. Maybe Germany has to take egypt. In the war the Germans had to head to North Africa to bail the Italians out.

NO German in Egypt  for a reason???

The Germans are implicitly represented by the fact that the Italians are stronger than the commonwealth in Egypt

Hi,

I have played 4 games so far both as allies and axis and every game Italy has been beaten badly in Africa.  And I did not even think to destroy the Italian fleet with GB when I was the allies because I was more focused on the Germans.  I just don’t see how Italy has the power to beat GB in Africa.  I built the Egypt minor industrial complex once but never ended up building anything there because my starting forces killed the italians.  Now if the GB player sends his fighters from the Pacific to Italy that makes taking Egypt totally impossible as far as I can see.  There is really not much disadvantage to doing this if Japan is doing the J3 India crush because then India will fall with little resistance no matter what is there.  And even if the Italians somehow get a force ready to take Egypt America is then going to show up and smash the Italian Captial.

Silly as it seems my friends thinks the best Italian move is to use the transports in the Med to start evacuating Africa and bring the men back to defend the captial for when USA arrives.  The other move he thought was sending the men all to Gilbartar and landing the German fighters there, but with america spending 52-82 points a turn it won’t slow them down that much.

I love the new board, new features, new countries and just the grand scale of everything.  But after five games of playing I believe it is at least much easier and straight forward to learn how to play the allies.  The game may be balanced but I believe the axis really need to plan there moves out and think ahead to be ready for what mega US will do.

@Chompers#2:

Hi,

I have played 4 games so far both as allies and axis and every game Italy has been beaten badly in Africa.  And I did not even think to destroy the Italian fleet with GB when I was the allies because I was more focused on the Germans.  I just don’t see how Italy has the power to beat GB in Africa.  I built the Egypt minor industrial complex once but never ended up building anything there because my starting forces killed the italians.  Now if the GB player sends his fighters from the Pacific to Italy that makes taking Egypt totally impossible as far as I can see.  There is really not much disadvantage to doing this if Japan is doing the J3 India crush because then India will fall with little resistance no matter what is there.  And even if the Italians somehow get a force ready to take Egypt America is then going to show up and smash the Italian Captial.

Silly as it seems my friends thinks the best Italian move is to use the transports in the Med to start evacuating Africa and bring the men back to defend the captial for when USA arrives.  The other move he thought was sending the men all to Gilbartar and landing the German fighters there, but with america spending 52-82 points a turn it won’t slow them down that much.

I love the new board, new features, new countries and just the grand scale of everything.  But after five games of playing I believe it is at least much easier and straight forward to learn how to play the allies.  The game may be balanced but I believe the axis really need to plan there moves out and think ahead to be ready for what mega US will do.

Well, that’s good. Usually the allies have a harder game. However, how does the UK return from losing its entire atlantic navy on G1?

In two games we played GB lost it’s starting alantic fleet pretty much completely.  It does really slow GB down a bit.  But then in one game the British navy destroyed the subs and planes attacking and then the defenders in France killed ten germans because less planes were used in the attack as they were used on the british navy.  This left Britan with 2 battleships to start with and a cruiser which they could join with the carrier off Gilbartar turn one and then use there turn one build get some transports and maybe a ship or two and then Germany will never be able to sink the fleet.  Because on top of the British ships living turn one the germans lost many planes in the attack.

And then in another games one of the battleships lived.  It may have been bad dice luck but I don’t believe it is a sure bet that GB will lose its navy turn one.  The German player needs some luck because the subs are only hitting on a 2 so the planes they use better hit.  If the British player rolls well turn one can go really bad for the germans in the Alantic.

Hmm… I’ve yet to even get my copy - but I was hoping that this edition would balance out the seemingly broken Pacific, making the global balanced overall.  I’m hoping time/more games will solve this…  :|

@Chompers#2:

In two games we played GB lost it’s starting alantic fleet pretty much completely.  It does really slow GB down a bit.  But then in one game the British navy destroyed the subs and planes attacking and then the defenders in France killed ten germans because less planes were used in the attack as they were used on the british navy.  This left Britan with 2 battleships to start with and a cruiser which they could join with the carrier off Gilbartar turn one and then use there turn one build get some transports and maybe a ship or two and then Germany will never be able to sink the fleet.  Because on top of the British ships living turn one the germans lost many planes in the attack.

And then in another games one of the battleships lived.  It may have been bad dice luck but I don’t believe it is a sure bet that GB will lose its navy turn one.  The German player needs some luck because the subs are only hitting on a 2 so the planes they use better hit.  If the British player rolls well turn one can go really bad for the germans in the Alantic.

True. I guess that probability of winning all of those battles is less than 50%