Italy a bad design

[chompers]

You’re not an idiot at all and your plan has its merits, but using the Lutwaffe in force on 110 could critically weaken your attack on France (I personally don’t feel comfortable going in there without at least an extra 2 plans to swing the odds further in your favor but that’s just my playstyle) and perhaps even more importantly it leaves the Battleship and Cruiser in 111 unscathed (the cost of rebuilding said units is probably about a wash with comparison to the convoy disruption you could reasonably expect to pull off).  Meanwhile, the other half of the Italian fleet dies the following turn, giving them effectively zero chance of taking Egypt as the Indian fighters land to reinforce it.  All of this is dwarfed by the fact that around turn 5 the American Mega Fleet of Doom is knocking on the door to Rome and Italy is completely incapable of marshalling the forces to stop it even if it plays flawlessly up to this point.  Believe me, I’m not whining and I hope it doesn’t come off sounding like it I am.  I think most of the concerns raised here so far are pretty valid and part of the beginning stages of balancing the game.  Italy has some serious issues accomplishing any of its objectives due to a weak starting position, weak economy, and the fact that it takes its turn after GB.

[Bodeacious]

So no one has commented that this all seems pretty reasonable.

The Italians fight like the French.

Given the Italians and Germans can kill most things left in the med on I1 and G2, Italy can get a NO, and start to build up its navy. I think the issues is that Taking Egypt comes at the expense of building that navy. I’m pretty sure that Germany needs to consider helping out in the Med and using a minor IC in either Yugoslavia or Southern France to help build a carrier with planes to help defend the Med. That being said, I’ve only played Europe to date.

[Tavenier]

I agree with the statement that Germany could build an IC somewhere on the Med Sea and in that way help the Italians out. You can also send in an inf to get the Egypt NO (or is that only with the Europe variant?). I would build an IC in the Eastern Med, because then it can also be used as a stagepoint for Barb.

[Guest]

didn’t the italy navy suffer big losses in real life?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@AA_fourlife:

didn’t the italy navy suffer big losses in real life?

Yes, at Taranto. I’m not sure of the precedent to Britain losing 3 destroyers, 2 cruisers, and 2 battleships G1

[TexCapPrezJimmy]

GB attacking Italy Fleet turn 1 with AC, Destroyer, Fighter and TB is a no brainer. Build a small IC in Egypt that same turn and the Med./Africa conflict is over…

You can claim I’m being premature, but I know a game flaw when I see one…

[calvinhobbesliker]

@TexCapPrezJimmy:

GB attacking Italy Fleet turn 1 with AC, Destroyer, Fighter and TB is a no brainer. Build a small IC in Egypt that same turn and the Med./Africa conflict is over…

You can claim I’m being premature, but I know a game flaw when I see one…

Don’t bring the carrier. That way, you survive with 2 planes and land them with the French Med Fleet. This way, if Italy plans to take Vichy, it will get no ipcs for it

[Bodeacious]

I just think we are missing something. Maybe Germany has to take egypt. In the war the Germans had to head to North Africa to bail the Italians out.

NO German in Egypt  for a reason???

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Bodeacious:

I just think we are missing something. Maybe Germany has to take egypt. In the war the Germans had to head to North Africa to bail the Italians out.

NO German in Egypt  for a reason???

The Germans are implicitly represented by the fact that the Italians are stronger than the commonwealth in Egypt

[Chompers2]

Hi,

I have played 4 games so far both as allies and axis and every game Italy has been beaten badly in Africa.  And I did not even think to destroy the Italian fleet with GB when I was the allies because I was more focused on the Germans.  I just don’t see how Italy has the power to beat GB in Africa.  I built the Egypt minor industrial complex once but never ended up building anything there because my starting forces killed the italians.  Now if the GB player sends his fighters from the Pacific to Italy that makes taking Egypt totally impossible as far as I can see.  There is really not much disadvantage to doing this if Japan is doing the J3 India crush because then India will fall with little resistance no matter what is there.  And even if the Italians somehow get a force ready to take Egypt America is then going to show up and smash the Italian Captial.

Silly as it seems my friends thinks the best Italian move is to use the transports in the Med to start evacuating Africa and bring the men back to defend the captial for when USA arrives.  The other move he thought was sending the men all to Gilbartar and landing the German fighters there, but with america spending 52-82 points a turn it won’t slow them down that much.

I love the new board, new features, new countries and just the grand scale of everything.  But after five games of playing I believe it is at least much easier and straight forward to learn how to play the allies.  The game may be balanced but I believe the axis really need to plan there moves out and think ahead to be ready for what mega US will do.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Chompers#2:

Hi,

I have played 4 games so far both as allies and axis and every game Italy has been beaten badly in Africa.  And I did not even think to destroy the Italian fleet with GB when I was the allies because I was more focused on the Germans.  I just don’t see how Italy has the power to beat GB in Africa.  I built the Egypt minor industrial complex once but never ended up building anything there because my starting forces killed the italians.  Now if the GB player sends his fighters from the Pacific to Italy that makes taking Egypt totally impossible as far as I can see.  There is really not much disadvantage to doing this if Japan is doing the J3 India crush because then India will fall with little resistance no matter what is there.  And even if the Italians somehow get a force ready to take Egypt America is then going to show up and smash the Italian Captial.

Silly as it seems my friends thinks the best Italian move is to use the transports in the Med to start evacuating Africa and bring the men back to defend the captial for when USA arrives.  The other move he thought was sending the men all to Gilbartar and landing the German fighters there, but with america spending 52-82 points a turn it won’t slow them down that much.

I love the new board, new features, new countries and just the grand scale of everything.  But after five games of playing I believe it is at least much easier and straight forward to learn how to play the allies.  The game may be balanced but I believe the axis really need to plan there moves out and think ahead to be ready for what mega US will do.

Well, that’s good. Usually the allies have a harder game. However, how does the UK return from losing its entire atlantic navy on G1?

[Chompers2]

In two games we played GB lost it’s starting alantic fleet pretty much completely.  It does really slow GB down a bit.  But then in one game the British navy destroyed the subs and planes attacking and then the defenders in France killed ten germans because less planes were used in the attack as they were used on the british navy.  This left Britan with 2 battleships to start with and a cruiser which they could join with the carrier off Gilbartar turn one and then use there turn one build get some transports and maybe a ship or two and then Germany will never be able to sink the fleet.  Because on top of the British ships living turn one the germans lost many planes in the attack.

And then in another games one of the battleships lived.  It may have been bad dice luck but I don’t believe it is a sure bet that GB will lose its navy turn one.  The German player needs some luck because the subs are only hitting on a 2 so the planes they use better hit.  If the British player rolls well turn one can go really bad for the germans in the Alantic.

[Viracocha]

Hmm… I’ve yet to even get my copy - but I was hoping that this edition would balance out the seemingly broken Pacific, making the global balanced overall.  I’m hoping time/more games will solve this…  :|

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Chompers#2:

In two games we played GB lost it’s starting alantic fleet pretty much completely.  It does really slow GB down a bit.  But then in one game the British navy destroyed the subs and planes attacking and then the defenders in France killed ten germans because less planes were used in the attack as they were used on the british navy.  This left Britan with 2 battleships to start with and a cruiser which they could join with the carrier off Gilbartar turn one and then use there turn one build get some transports and maybe a ship or two and then Germany will never be able to sink the fleet.  Because on top of the British ships living turn one the germans lost many planes in the attack.

And then in another games one of the battleships lived.  It may have been bad dice luck but I don’t believe it is a sure bet that GB will lose its navy turn one.  The German player needs some luck because the subs are only hitting on a 2 so the planes they use better hit.  If the British player rolls well turn one can go really bad for the germans in the Alantic.

True. I guess that probability of winning all of those battles is less than 50%

[Starwolf]

I am new to the boards, been watching for a long time.  I just have to say something here……

In my opinion, Italy IS going to need Germanys help, no way around that.

If the Germans on turn one non-combat phase land their planes right if the Brits go after the Italian fleet, they will lose theirs on Germanys next turn.  This will still leave some Italian ships left and no Brits, Italy still has a great chance.

I think the great thing about this game, is there are so many options, some may prove to be better that others, but that doesnt break a game, it just makes it harder.

By the way, thanks for all the great ideas and info from past posts!

[Chompers2]

I don’t think the game is broken and unbalanced like 1940 Pacific.  My experience so far is that as beginners playing the game the first couple of times it is easier to play the allies.  I think the J1 attack is still best for the Axis in this because Japan has to get moving to Moscow ASAP.  The benefits seem to outweigh the negatives.

For axis to do a sea lion against a competent GB player is low odds at best I think plus by the time you could pull it off US could liberate UK.  The benefits don’t seem to out weigh the negatives.  For Germany to do this they would be vurnable to Russia and US by spending so many points on fleet and transports.

Invading Russia with Germany is frustrating because when we did it we had to turn around to fend off he Brits and Americans before we could get further than Leningrad.  The russians territories on the front line are worth very little points.

It seems to me so far that most effective Germany is to start preparing for allied landing with massive troop builds and maybe try and capture one Russian city.  Then have Germany just defend and wait for the Japan player to take over the pacific and march towards Moscow.  Not sure who wins that race.  I guess  I would enjoy playing a more offensive oriented Germany.  Yet I don’t won’t to discourage anyone because I am fairly new to axis and allies and have much to learn.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@Chompers#2:

I don’t think the game is broken and unbalanced like 1940 Pacific.  My experience so far is that as beginners playing the game the first couple of times it is easier to play the allies.  I think the J1 attack is still best for the Axis in this because Japan has to get moving to Moscow ASAP.  The benefits seem to outweigh the negatives.

For axis to do a sea lion against a competent GB player is low odds at best I think plus by the time you could pull it off US could liberate UK.  The benefits don’t seem to out weigh the negatives.  For Germany to do this they would be vurnable to Russia and US by spending so many points on fleet and transports.

Invading Russia with Germany is frustrating because when we did it we had to turn around to fend off he Brits and Americans before we could get further than Leningrad.  The russians territories on the front line are worth very little points.

It seems to me so far that most effective Germany is to start preparing for allied landing with massive troop builds and maybe try and capture one Russian city.  Then have Germany just defend and wait for the Japan player to take over the pacific and march towards Moscow.  Not sure who wins that race.  I guess  I would enjoy playing a more offensive oriented Germany.  Yet I don’t won’t to discourage anyone because I am fairly new to axis and allies and have much to learn.

Moscow is 9 turns from Manchuria. Russia has plenty of time to build inf wall.

[Guest]

all 18 eastern russia goes to manchuria, then build a complex, then……

[moralecheck]

@AA_fourlife:

all 18 eastern russia goes to manchuria, then build a complex, then……

Doesn’t Manchuria get return to China?  I suppose Korea would work though.

[Guest]

@moralecheck:

@AA_fourlife:

all 18 eastern russia goes to manchuria, then build a complex, then……

Doesn’t Manchuria get return to China?  I suppose Korea would work though.

oops, yes that is what i meant.