Italy a bad design

[Guest]

I think Italy in this global game is designed terribly. I started my first global game today and UK took out the Italian navy before Italy even took a turn. With no way of getting units to africa the allies have no contest and Italy making around 10-12 a turn is not enough to rebuild a fleet. Did Larry intend for Italy to not start the game with a fleet? They are made useless UK round 1.

[UN Spacy]

@Blitz:

I think Italy in this global game is designed terribly. I started my first global game today and UK took out the Italian navy before Italy even took a turn. With no way of getting units to africa the allies have no contest and Italy making around 10-12 a turn is not enough to rebuild a fleet. Did Larry intend for Italy to not start the game with a fleet? They are made useless UK round 1.

When I started my game, the UK tried to do the exact same thing and paid dearly for it. It all depends on the dice; attacking the Italian Navy (specifically the battleship and cruiser) is risky and can mortally wound British efforts in the Med and Africa. However, if it works, then the Italian Navy will become one with the ocean floor.

[BadSpeller]

Next time, keep the UK honest by purchasing a transport and have your 2trn & planes ready to take London on G2. If UK protects against a London takeover, Italy will have their fleet. Then use German 2trn to get units to Russia faster.  Everything is a trade off though. Nothing easy or for free in A&A. :)

[Imperious Leader]

I predicted this result. I think the only way to get the UK carrier group to not do this is to make Germany prepare for Sealion and force the British to protect from invasion.

I don’t know exactly what these builds will be, but a carrier and transports looks like a good start.

[chompers]

GB can easily afford to sink the SZ 95 fleet in a statistically fairly high probability attack while purchasing 9 inf their first turn thus negating any reasonable chance of a G2 sea lion.  They’ll need the inf down the road anyway for landings in Europe so it’d not like you’re forcing them into making a sub-optimal purchase, whereas Germany’s blowing about 25% of its starting IPC’s on a mostly useless transport.

[BadSpeller]

And so the Great Debate starts….“the best G1 purchases and moves are…”! :-)

[plumsmugler]

I agree with Blitz.  Based on the odds calculator, the Italian battleship and cruiser have a 95% chance of getting destroyed, and the average result for the UK is losing the boats and keeping both aircraft.  If you link up the carrier and aircraft in z91 with the French fleet in z93 then there is a high probability of the carrier and planes surviving no matter what counter-attack Italy makes against them.  There is absolutely no reason not to make this attack, no matter what the Germans are doing.  Without a strong Med fleet the Italians are useless.  This seems incredibly broken to me.

[BadSpeller]

Ah yes, AAG40 is hours old.  Some games started, FEW game actually finished to completion, and already the ‘I declare it is broken because I am so smart and can predict the future’ claim has started. :roll:

[chompers]

Whereas I agree that understanding the game in its entirety will take many many hours of play, it’s very hard to find a silver lining for the Axis in this situation.  I’ve had the game since Thurs and have played 6 games and counting so far.  Each one Italy has been quickly and efficiently shut down with very little effort through a variety of means.  This is arguably the best way to do it, and there’s not really any downside to the move that I can see personally.  I would absolutely love to be proven wrong.

[BadSpeller]

I too would like to see a strat that solves that problem.

Allow time to answer the problem.

If not, then a setup change (Errata) will do it.

[robbie358]

@BadSpeller:

And so the Great Debate starts….“the best G1 purchases and moves are…”! :-)

And so the GRAND BELLYACHING begins.  Noone is happy with anything in this forum.  For chrissakes…

ANYWAYS, the Italian Navy only dies if Germany allows it to.  IF on G1 the German Luftwaffe hits SZ 110 and the Germans send 2 U-boats to SZ 106 and 3 to SZ 109 it leaves the British in a very tough situation.  If it sacrifices that carrier (and especially destroyer) to kill the Italian Navy then it will undergo 3 IPC convoy disrupt from Canada and 6(!) IPC convoy disrupt from UK itself.  That is 9 bucks A TURN for potentially a very long time.

Besides, the Italians get two different sea zones with transports if I’m not mistaken so at least one should probably survive even with an all-out UK assault.  AND after Italy takes Greece and Southern France and grabs Egypt, and when the Germs or Japs get their air force around to killing the Allies’ Med fleet, they get 27 BUCKS A TURN.  That’s no small amount in my humble estimation. Cruiser/Destroyer/Transport every turn.

Though maybe I’m just a complete idiot and you whiners are the smart people in the room.  I must be totally wrong about this because noone here ever complains if there isn’t a great reason to.

[hewhoisnickel]

@robbie358:

@BadSpeller:

And so the Great Debate starts….“the best G1 purchases and moves are…”! :-)

And so the GRAND BELLYACHING begins.  Noone is happy with anything in this forum.  For chrissakes…

ANYWAYS, the Italian Navy only dies if Germany allows it to.  IF on G1 the German Luftwaffe hits SZ 110 and the Germans send 2 U-boats to SZ 106 and 3 to SZ 109 it leaves the British in a very tough situation.  If it sacrifices that carrier (and especially destroyer) to kill the Italian Navy then it will undergo 3 IPC convoy disrupt from Canada and 6(!) IPC convoy disrupt from UK itself.  That is 9 bucks A TURN for potentially a very long time.

Besides, the Italians get two different sea zones with transports if I’m not mistaken so at least one should probably survive even with an all-out UK assault.  AND after Italy takes Greece and Southern France and grabs Egypt, and when the Germs or Japs get their air force around to killing the Allies’ Med fleet, they get 27 BUCKS A TURN.  That’s no small amount in my humble estimation. Cruiser/Destroyer/Transport every turn.

Though maybe I’m just a complete idiot and you whiners are the smart people in the room.  I must be totally wrong about this because noone here ever complains if there isn’t a great reason to.

I do not know you, but I like you Robbie.

Let’s hope you’re right about the Italian navy. Italy looks so exciting to play… :-D

[Imperious Leader]

Germany needs the carrier and some transports. UK can build infantry so the attack will need to consider the resources Germany can bring on G2 or even G3.

German planes need to land in Norway to protect the bomber which was used to kill the far UK fleet assets on G1

[chompers]

You’re not an idiot at all and your plan has its merits, but using the Lutwaffe in force on 110 could critically weaken your attack on France (I personally don’t feel comfortable going in there without at least an extra 2 plans to swing the odds further in your favor but that’s just my playstyle) and perhaps even more importantly it leaves the Battleship and Cruiser in 111 unscathed (the cost of rebuilding said units is probably about a wash with comparison to the convoy disruption you could reasonably expect to pull off).  Meanwhile, the other half of the Italian fleet dies the following turn, giving them effectively zero chance of taking Egypt as the Indian fighters land to reinforce it.  All of this is dwarfed by the fact that around turn 5 the American Mega Fleet of Doom is knocking on the door to Rome and Italy is completely incapable of marshalling the forces to stop it even if it plays flawlessly up to this point.  Believe me, I’m not whining and I hope it doesn’t come off sounding like it I am.  I think most of the concerns raised here so far are pretty valid and part of the beginning stages of balancing the game.  Italy has some serious issues accomplishing any of its objectives due to a weak starting position, weak economy, and the fact that it takes its turn after GB.

[Bodeacious]

So no one has commented that this all seems pretty reasonable.

The Italians fight like the French.

Given the Italians and Germans can kill most things left in the med on I1 and G2, Italy can get a NO, and start to build up its navy. I think the issues is that Taking Egypt comes at the expense of building that navy. I’m pretty sure that Germany needs to consider helping out in the Med and using a minor IC in either Yugoslavia or Southern France to help build a carrier with planes to help defend the Med. That being said, I’ve only played Europe to date.

[Tavenier]

I agree with the statement that Germany could build an IC somewhere on the Med Sea and in that way help the Italians out. You can also send in an inf to get the Egypt NO (or is that only with the Europe variant?). I would build an IC in the Eastern Med, because then it can also be used as a stagepoint for Barb.

[Guest]

didn’t the italy navy suffer big losses in real life?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@AA_fourlife:

didn’t the italy navy suffer big losses in real life?

Yes, at Taranto. I’m not sure of the precedent to Britain losing 3 destroyers, 2 cruisers, and 2 battleships G1

[TexCapPrezJimmy]

GB attacking Italy Fleet turn 1 with AC, Destroyer, Fighter and TB is a no brainer. Build a small IC in Egypt that same turn and the Med./Africa conflict is over…

You can claim I’m being premature, but I know a game flaw when I see one…

[calvinhobbesliker]

@TexCapPrezJimmy:

GB attacking Italy Fleet turn 1 with AC, Destroyer, Fighter and TB is a no brainer. Build a small IC in Egypt that same turn and the Med./Africa conflict is over…

You can claim I’m being premature, but I know a game flaw when I see one…

Don’t bring the carrier. That way, you survive with 2 planes and land them with the French Med Fleet. This way, if Italy plans to take Vichy, it will get no ipcs for it