AA Europe '40 Box Art

@LHoffman:

But as a fighting and producing nation, they were lost in the shadows of their Allies.

Lost in the shadows of their allies?

Let’s take a look at some of the things the French did after their country fell.

-The French fought in Africa, in Sicily, liberated Corsica, fought in Italy, took part in the invasion of Europe and fought through the battles of France and Germany–-from Normandy to Munich.

-At the Battle of Bir Hakeim in North Africa, the Free French held off the forces of Rommel’s Afrika Korps for 16 days, allowing the British 8th Army to re-organize and stall the Axis advance into Egypt at the Battle of El Alamein. They resisted with almost no support from the British and escaped only when they ran out of ammunition.  If the Free French hadn’t held on as stubbornly as they did at Bir Hakeim I doubt the British Army would have had time to stop the Axis from blitzing into Egypt.

-Units from the French navy participated in the invasions of Sicily, Italy, Normandy and South France.

-Units of the French navy and merchant marine took part in convoying operations on the Atlantic and Murmansk routes.

-On June 5, 1944, the day before D-Day, over 5,000 Frenchmen of the resistance dynamited railroads in more than 500 strategic places.

-They delayed strategic German troop movements for an average of 48 hours, according to military experts. Those 48 hours were tactically priceless ; they saved an untold number of Allied lives in the Normandy Campaign.

-French resistance groups blew up a series of bridges in southern France and delayed one of the Wehrmacht’s crack units (Das Reich Panzer Division) for twelve days in getting from Bordeaux to Normandy when it would normally take three.

-About 30,000 FF1 troops supported the US Third Army’s VIII Corps in Brittany: they seized and held key spots ; they conducted extensive guerrilla operations behind the German lines.

-25,000 FFI troops protected the south flank of the US Third Army in its daring dash across France: the FFI wiped out German bridgeheads north of the Loire River ; they guarded vital lines of communication; they wiped out pockets of German resistance; they held many towns and cities under orders from Allied command.

-When the US Third Army was approaching the area between Dijon and Troyes from the west, and while the Seventh Army was approaching this sector from the South, it was the FFI who stubbornly blocked the Germans from making a stand and prevented a mass retirement of German troops.

-In Paris, as the Allied armies drew close, several hundred thousand French men and women rose up against the Germans. 50,000 armed men of the resistance fought and beat the Nazi garrison, and occupied the main buildings and administrative offices of Paris. It was only on the last day when Allied troops (French and American) came in to help the FFI forces, and by then the German garrison was ready to surrender. To the French.

The allies were the ones who declared war on Germany my friend, thus getting the world involved, Germany certainly did not start ww2 as you so put it.                                    Back on topic though, the box art has always looked cool to me. I think its fine.

@Krupp:

The allies were the ones who declared war on Germany my friend, thus getting the world involved, Germany certainly did not start ww2 as you so put it.                                    Back on topic though, the box art has always looked cool to me. I think its fine.

They did so because Germany invaded Poland. Thus, Germany was at fault. The allies just honored their pledge.

jeez guys its just a box. What matters is whats inside!

Well… I did not look to start a war here, but I concede that you have come up with some pretty good points here.

I do not mean to belittle French contributions to the war… they are what they are, be them big or small. I simple wish to reiterate that France played less of a role in major battles and fronts than their Allies. I agree with you that they were very important, if not pivotal at some points. However, I question the ability of a boardgame to simulate what the French did in the war. While I do not object to their inclusion in the game, I do not forsee them playing as big a role in it as they did in the real war. Obviously I have not seen or played the game yet, but what I really am getting at here is: giving the most prominent positions (in gameplay and on the box cover) to those who played the most prominent parts. My joking about Napoleon aside, I am not opposed to having a French flag on the box… it just seems like if they don’t have a ‘major’ role in the game, why give them the biggest (or second biggest) flag? Can you argue that the French did more in the war than the British, the Russians or the Americans? I know they did a lot, based on what you have described, but the Big Three allies participated in all that and more.

As for Germany, swastikas etc… I obviously did not consider the game’s sales world wide. I agree that in Germany, certain subjects in World War II are way beyond taboo. And I realize why swastikas and the like will not be appearing on Axis and Allies products. While I disagree with the censorship, I also do not and have not lived in Germany, so I don’t know what kind of pain-shame-embarassment still resides there. Due to this lack of knowledge, I cannot say “put swastikas in the game and hope it sells”. Perhaps in Germany it is common sense to not have swastikas on merchandise. Perhaps it is a wise business decision based on the social restrictions in that country.

Let me revise, or rather clarify, my statement that “those who oppose the game with a swastika on it are ignorant”: those who would decry the game or its developers because there was, say, a Nazi flag on the box, are ignorant. There are people who would claim racism or any number of things against whatever carries that symbol. Those people are ignorant. They care only that the symbol is there, what it stands for and what it means to them. They do not even think its image is acceptable in the context of a historical rendering.

Now, people who would oppose this because their argument is, “Oh, that is not such a good idea, because people in Germany would not take it so well,” or, “Well, other people might think it is bad and then it wouldn’t sell and there would be bad publicity, so it is better not to put a swastika on the box,” …. I can respect these arguments, and I am willing to back down from my insistence on there being a Nazi flag on the box. Because these statements are intelligent, they have good reasons behind them and are founded in what you said UN Spacy: Common Sense.

I can be resigned to the fact that there will never be a swastika on an AA box. I realize that nothing I say here will help my cause with the people who would matter. I just do not agree with it. Yes, in a perfect world, maybe it could work. Maybe no one would be offended and we could all recognize it as the past and have humanity vow that it would never happen again. But my argument becomes pointless because that will obviously never happen. There will never be a swastika on the box. OK. I am fine with that being the case, even if I wish it were not true.

Yes, Hitler did “some bad stuff”.

People will always teach that what Hitler did was wrong (except perhaps those who want Israel destroyed… ahem…Ahmadinejad) … Need I say what has already been said, and what everyone already knows? If anyone does not know what the Nazis did to Jews and others, tell me and I will begin a litany for you. Until then, I will just assume everyone here knows exactly what “bad stuff” I meant. Otherwise I spell it all out and that post becomes three times longer than it is.

People will not forget about Hitler, or what he did, and not having swastikas on this game will not affect our world at all. But I was referencing a trend towards people in seats of authority, ranging from parents to governments, to hide what we don’t wish to see, what may be ugly and disturbing. Even if it is the truth. Like I said, people will still know about Hitler and the Nazis, regardless is they are portrayed in minor boardgame played by a few people. But it is the lack of portrayal in this game that is simply another example of the trend in that lack of recognition. I don’t know that I can blame Avalon Hill or Mr. Harris for not showing a swastika when they are pressured by world wide sentiment against it. While they might be doing something completely innoccent in portraying history with a swastika… I know that doesn’t mean that everyone else will see it that way. I retract my previous comments (“dammit… show real history etc…”) as they were directed at Avalon Hill or Mr. Harris. But I keep those comments as they pertain to the world as a whole.

I also agree with your comments, UN Spacy, on the Soviet vs. Nazi flags/symbols … you are right that the Sovie… I mean Russians are not as shameful over their previous government as the Germans are, but in reality they ought to be. If you look at the facts and history of it all. I could argue that Soviet Communism has caused more wars and death and suffering to the human spirit than the Hitler and the Nazis did. If not for Lenin and the birth of the Soviet Union, would we have had the Korean war, Vietnam war, Kim Jong Il, Mao, Stalin, Castro… My point is that communists have caused far more worldwide suffering than the Nazis did. Whether or not the world recognizes that… I don’t necessarily have control over. Part of the reason the general public might not know all this is because a good portion of the world was, and still is communist, and thus they control what others see. I am not defending the Nazis, but they get all the blame when the guys on “our side” were just as bad.

Again, it is too bad that the world doesn’t recognize this… but that does not change the fact that the swastika IS hated more than the hammer and the sickle.

Hey, what is this garbage about the Allies starting the war. The aggressor was clearly Germany in the West 1939 and Japan in the East 1931. Yeah, the Allies had to officially START the war otherwise the opposition would have simply laid down and we would not have had a war!

@Make_It_Round:

Can anybody recognize the generals on the box cover?

I see Rommel, Patton, Zhukov… but who is that in the foreground?

George C. Marshall

@LHoffman:

As for Germany, swastikas etc… I obviously did not consider the game’s sales world wide. I agree that in Germany, certain subjects in World War II are way beyond taboo. And I realize why swastikas and the like will not be appearing on Axis and Allies products. While I disagree with the censorship, I also do not and have not lived in Germany, so I don’t know what kind of pain-shame-embarassment still resides there. Due to this lack of knowledge, I cannot say “put swastikas in the game and hope it sells”. Perhaps in Germany it is common sense to not have swastikas on merchandise. Perhaps it is a wise business decision based on the social restrictions in that country.

Germany has strict laws concerning Nazi-related materials, which would make it illegal for the swastika to be depicted on a commercial game.

@LHoffman:

Hey, what is this garbage about the Allies starting the war. The aggressor was clearly Germany in the West 1939 and Japan in the East 1931. Yeah, the Allies had to officially START the war otherwise the opposition would have simply laid down and we would not have had a war!

Germany attacked Poland. POLAND. Not France or Great Britain. Yes, France and GB honored their pledge to Poland, but in doing so, they got the world involved in something much bigger than Hitlers plans on Lebensraum in the East. You do know that Hitler wanted peace with GB after the Battle of France, but Churchill wanted to carry on the fight?

As for the box art, you are absolutely, 100% right. But what you are suggesting will never, ever happen. Using the Swastika will reduce sales for the makers of the game. We live in a market economy, and that’s that.

@Raeder:

@LHoffman:

Hey, what is this garbage about the Allies starting the war. The aggressor was clearly Germany in the West 1939 and Japan in the East 1931. Yeah, the Allies had to officially START the war otherwise the opposition would have simply laid down and we would not have had a war!

Germany attacked Poland. POLAND. Not France or Great Britain. Yes, France and GB honored their pledge to Poland, but in doing so, they got the world involved in something much bigger than Hitlers plans on Lebensraum in the East. You do know that Hitler wanted peace with GB after the Battle of France, but Churchill wanted to carry on the fight?

As for the box art, you are absolutely, 100% right. But what you are suggesting will never, ever happen. Using the Swastika will reduce sales for the makers of the game. We live in a market economy, and that’s that.

Britain and France did not get the USSR or the USA involved. it’s obvious the UK would’ve eventally gone to war due to Japan.

You really think Germany would’ve stopped at Poland? Appeasement was tried and failed. Germany wanted peace with Britain so that Germany and the UK could become allies and defeat the US and USSR.

Have you read Pat Buchanan’s book The Unnecessary War?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Raeder:

@LHoffman:

Hey, what is this garbage about the Allies starting the war. The aggressor was clearly Germany in the West 1939 and Japan in the East 1931. Yeah, the Allies had to officially START the war otherwise the opposition would have simply laid down and we would not have had a war!

Germany attacked Poland. POLAND. Not France or Great Britain. Yes, France and GB honored their pledge to Poland, but in doing so, they got the world involved in something much bigger than Hitlers plans on Lebensraum in the East. You do know that Hitler wanted peace with GB after the Battle of France, but Churchill wanted to carry on the fight?

As for the box art, you are absolutely, 100% right. But what you are suggesting will never, ever happen. Using the Swastika will reduce sales for the makers of the game. We live in a market economy, and that’s that.

Britain and France did not get the USSR or the USA involved. it’s obvious the UK would’ve eventally gone to war due to Japan.

You really think Germany would’ve stopped at Poland? Appeasement was tried and failed. Germany wanted peace with Britain so that Germany and the UK could become allies and defeat the US and USSR.

Have you read Pat Buchanan’s book The Unnecessary War?

Hitler attacked in the West because he had to. He attacked the Soviets because he wanted to. The US got involved because the Japs attacked them.

I’m not saying that Hitler would not have declared war on the western nations eventually, maybe he would have. I’m just saying that AT THE TIME, France and GB started something that was a lot bigger than the war between Germany and Poland.

As for the book, I have not read it. Thanks for the tip. But a book is just a book, we still don’t know exactly what went on in Hitler’s mind, and we don’t know how it would have played out had France and GB not declared war, or if GB had accepted peace after the fall of France.

@Raeder:

Hitler attacked in the West because he had to.

LOL

Good one.

@Raeder:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Raeder:

@LHoffman:

Hey, what is this garbage about the Allies starting the war. The aggressor was clearly Germany in the West 1939 and Japan in the East 1931. Yeah, the Allies had to officially START the war otherwise the opposition would have simply laid down and we would not have had a war!

Germany attacked Poland. POLAND. Not France or Great Britain. Yes, France and GB honored their pledge to Poland, but in doing so, they got the world involved in something much bigger than Hitlers plans on Lebensraum in the East. You do know that Hitler wanted peace with GB after the Battle of France, but Churchill wanted to carry on the fight?

As for the box art, you are absolutely, 100% right. But what you are suggesting will never, ever happen. Using the Swastika will reduce sales for the makers of the game. We live in a market economy, and that’s that.

Britain and France did not get the USSR or the USA involved. it’s obvious the UK would’ve eventally gone to war due to Japan.

You really think Germany would’ve stopped at Poland? Appeasement was tried and failed. Germany wanted peace with Britain so that Germany and the UK could become allies and defeat the US and USSR.

Have you read Pat Buchanan’s book The Unnecessary War?

Hitler attacked in the West because he had to. He attacked the Soviets because he wanted to. The US got involved because the Japs attacked them.

I’m not saying that Hitler would not have declared war on the western nations eventually, maybe he would have. I’m just saying that AT THE TIME, France and GB started something that was a lot bigger than the war between Germany and Poland.

As for the book, I have not read it. Thanks for the tip. But a book is just a book, we still don’t know exactly what went on in Hitler’s mind, and we don’t know how it would have played out had France and GB not declared war, or if GB had accepted peace after the fall of France.

Actually, the book supports your claim that the allies started the war

@UN:

@Raeder:

Hitler attacked in the West because he had to.

LOL

Good one.

What’s funny about it? Hitler took Norway straight from under the noses of the Brits. Because he had to. Hitler attacked France in order to destroy them before they themselves launched an attack on Germany. Because he had to.

Another way of saying it is that he did it because he was not an idiot. He knew what would happen if he would have done nothing. The Allies took the initiative by declaring war. Hitler took it back by going on the offensive. In any case he was not the aggressor in the west.

@calvinhobbesliker:

Actually, the book supports your claim that the allies started the war

Interesting. I will have to read it.

@Raeder:

@UN:

@Raeder:

Hitler attacked in the West because he had to.

LOL

Good one.

What’s funny about it? Hitler took Norway straight from under the noses of the Brits. Because he had to. Hitler attacked France in order to destroy them before they themselves launched an attack on Germany. Because he had to.

Another way of saying it is that he did it because he was not an idiot. He knew what would happen if he would have done nothing. The Allies took the initiative by declaring war. Hitler took it back by going on the offensive. In any case he was not the aggressor in the west.

France and Britain had 6 months to start an offensive and they failed. They were hoping for a stalemate, and only planned for a defensive war in the west. Thus, Germany started the war in the West(and invaded some neutrals while he was at it).

What’s funny about it? Hitler took Norway straight from under the noses of the Brits

No, he took Norway away from the Norwegians and invaded a neutral country. It doesn’t matter if it was because he needed to just secure resources, it was still a deliberate attack on a sovereign nation, which is aggression in my book.[

[quote]Hitler attacked France in order to destroy them before they themselves launched an attack on Germany.

Is that why we built the Maginot Line?

Another way of saying it is that he did it because he was not an idiot. He knew what would happen if he would have done nothing.

He could have not invaded Poland and provoked a conflict. No, he was the aggressor of the war for the war in Europe and especially the Blitzkrieg to the West, and will until the end of history be remembered as the aggressor.

calvinhobbesliker also makes a good point in the post above this one.

Stay on topic. This is only about box art. Nothing else.

@calvinhobbesliker:

@Raeder:

@UN:

@Raeder:

Hitler attacked in the West because he had to.

LOL

Good one.

What’s funny about it? Hitler took Norway straight from under the noses of the Brits. Because he had to. Hitler attacked France in order to destroy them before they themselves launched an attack on Germany. Because he had to.

Another way of saying it is that he did it because he was not an idiot. He knew what would happen if he would have done nothing. The Allies took the initiative by declaring war. Hitler took it back by going on the offensive. In any case he was not the aggressor in the west.

France and Britain had 6 months to start an offensive and they failed. They were hoping for a stalemate, and only planned for a defensive war in the west. Thus, Germany started the war in the West(and invaded some neutrals while he was at it).

As for Norway, GB was just about to take control of it when Hitler launched the invasion.

As for Denmark, BeNeLux and France, he feared that if he did nothing, then he could expect an allied attack at any time. By taking control of these areas, he believed he could force GB to accept peace, thus ending hostilities. Hitler wanted GB as allies, not enemies.

GB chose to:

1. Declare war.

2. Refuse peace offered by Hitler and carry on the fight after France fell.

Again, I’m not saying Hitler wasn’t a dirtbag, I’m saying look at the facts. Great Britain was very much involved in making it a world war.

@Imperious:

Stay on topic. This is only about box art. Nothing else.

Sorry. Back on topic.

Yeah, sorry about all this getting off topic stuff. I suppose most of it was my fault.

… causing trouble on his first posts… jeez… watch out for this LHoffman dude, he seems to be a troublemaker…