AA50: Strategic - Core Rule #3 –> Making Techs Viable for Competitive Play

Out of friggin control, too complicated

Just divide the techs into Air, Land, Naval, and Economic so powers can aim for techs they need rather than just randomly

Or every nation starts with a free tech token, or free tech it had historicly

yes each one gets one automatically. Also Mech infantry is not a tech. Infantry on trucks existed in WW1.

Advanced Artillery is bogus too. No such thing. Just because the game offers optional rules doe not mean they have to become standard in house rules.

Also, war bonds cant be a technology. Paper bonds existed in the American Civil War. They are not ‘technology’ bad ideas should not be added to house rules. House rules are meant to improve the game in some way.

Half of these techs are more like NA’s.

@cousin_joe:

With AA50 OOTB rules, any donkey of a player can roll 5 IPC for Tech, score Heavy Bombers, and proceed to win the game.  Did he outstrategize his opponent?  No. He just got lucky.  This is why most tournaments don’t even use Tech, as it just kills the whole competitive nature of the game

1/36 -> 2.5 % chances to get a tech that was downgraded by Larry in a FAQ. Clearly overkill

Better fix China and the asian setup (China unbalances the game 100% of games). Or at least melt Perry Channel’s icecap

Good that you showed up. I have been advocating that China be a addressed as opposed to a free UK factory.

Either China plays with Soviets ( to save the fighter)
China rounds up infantry 3 territories gets you 2 INF
China get X extra infantry at start and or Burma road gives them an extra INF per turn.

@oztea:

Out of friggin control, too complicated

Ignore them. They seem to miss the point that the goal of AA50 strategic is not to fix the bugs but to improve upon the game. Imagine what would have happened if you had listened to this kind of talk when you started AARe. I know I for one would probably not be an Axis and Allies fan anymore.

Great work CJ. However, I think simply having heavy bombers as is, is a problem. Even at such an expensive price they still totally unbalance the sea. Compare a 12 point unit that attacks with 2@4  to a 12 point ship that attacks with 1@3. Wouldn’t it be better to make it slightly weaker and see more action. I advise changing this tech. A few ideas I came up with/like were:
1. Bombers used as heavy bombers have -2 movement for the duration of the turn - someone elses idea (this speed decrease would make them harder to use against sea units, and SBR would be harder to do)
2. Heavy bombers involved in sea battles get -1 attack, (SBR can be countered with radar)
IMO the 2@4 pick higher dice was the lamest excuse for a fix ever.

@Imperious:

Good that you showed up. I have been advocating that China be a addressed as opposed to a free UK factory.

Either China plays with Soviets ( to save the fighter)
China rounds up infantry 3 territories gets you 2 INF
China get X extra infantry at start and or Burma road gives them an extra INF per turn.

I agree with IL here. China needs a fix. As per current rules, china loses its fighter first turn and is a joke the rest of the game.
To fix, I would suggest these:
1. China plays as a separate power directly after Russia. This would save China fighter and increases the strength of China since Russia can take territories to give China more units
2. Create a Burma Road rule: If China controls the Burma road on his mobilize units phase, he may place 1 artillery unit as per China’s placement rules. This represents China’s dependence on outsiders for artillery.
3. Instead of rounding up, make China count for his units in mobilize units phase. All the other nations get their resources at the end of their turn why not China.

Anyway this is the wrong thread for China. This is the thread for Techs. China should be discussed in the main AA0 Strategic thread.

I would also advocate dumping the minor tech category by improving the ones in it.
War bonds can be improved to moderate or even major by simply making it a 2 dice roll
Advanced artillery can be improved a few ways
1. advanced artillery 3/3 unit
2. advanced artillery support infantry to 3/3 on a 1 to 1 basis
3. advanced artillery are exactly the same as AARe’s German 88’s

Why?
The main reason is the advanced artillery. On the surface, it looks ok, but if you think about it, it is pathetic. Advanced artillery only saves 1 IPC per 20 (21 down to 20). For example, with advanced artillery, you can buy 4 infanntry and 2 artillery for 20 IPCs. For the same punch anybody can buy 3 infantry and 3 artillery for 21 IPCs. This is a very sad payout for advanced artillery.

I also think that someone wanting to go heavy on artillery should have a better choice of tech. As it is. advanced artillery is much worse than war bonds.

I had other ideas for changes to techs (My idea was to try to make them all equal), but I think your idea of tiers is a good one–Without it, long range aircraft would be pretty hard to match.
Obviously this all needs playtesting, but I think its a great start. Keep it up CJ.

These rules sound great! I will have too try them out in my next game of AA50!(three week from now :oops:)

Bring on the global/allied/axis techs. I also agree with IL, get rid of the Advanced artillery and war bonds techs. they are just stupid and useless.

Keep Advanced artillery. Just make it better. (Artillery become 3/3 units).
I wouldn’t mind dumping war bonds altogether though.

I don’t really like the air-sea-land cost ratios. It seems that the AA50 decreased the price of bombers to make them more viable on land, but increased the price of ships (slightly) to fit in a new ship and to even out ship battles. Even normal bombers with 12 IPCs and 4 attack make the cruisers look weak. Sure the cruisers can bombard, but the bombers can actually participate in the battle. Fighters are very much the same way. A 10 point unit with 3/4 combat values doesn’t fit too well in the sea. To even this out they made a virtually useless 14 point carrier needed to hold them. This is only normal planes. Now imagine a bomber throwing 2 dice. I realize your wish to not change the techs, but I really think that heavy bombers need to be modified. This isn’t AARe where bombers cost 14. They only cost 12. I think it is better to make heavy bombers more playable than to make them unobtainable (super expensive). Perhaps make heavy bombers increase the price of your bombers by 3 (existing bombers must pay 3 to upgrade). This is not necessarily the right choice, just another idea.

Keep Advanced artillery. Just make it better. (Artillery become 3/3 units).

Artillery cant be the same as tanks. Also ‘advanced artillery’ is a phantom idea inserted from imagination in terms of its ability to “boost 2 infantry +1 on defense” It is based on nothing that exists where any artillery is of greater aid to the defender as if they invented something special. They didn’t.

If you go the route where your changing the unit profile to a 3-2 unit…you might as well replace it with heavy tanks or elite armor which could be a 4-3 or 4-4 unit, or make mobile artillery that moves 2 spaces with technology, but this too is not under the realm of “technology” but NA’s.

War Bonds are guys who fought with valor and bravery touring the nation promoting the sale of government bonds…or Bob Hope dancing and singing with Dorothy Lamay… hardly a ‘technology’

I think either the notion of technology needs to be scrapped and re-scripted or kept pure and add in NA’s that could include ‘war bonds’

Yea i know some will say " hey we just want stuff that adds options and don’t care about reality"

I am saying just don’t call them technology and make a separate category for them and eliminate things that never existed. Otherwise you might as well include NAZI flying saucers and Godzilla because they didn’t exist either.

As far as that UK factory thing… id get rid of it because it really closes options, forcing UK to commit to a predefined strategy to justify its new advantage. If anything fix China like everybody else says because that is the key for keeping Japan in check… UK can use it to make its own decision of how to play and not spoonfeed it some complex that it now might want in Australia or Egypt or elsewhere.

Tanks should be 6 IPC. This should have been done a while ago since they made tanks a 3-3 unit.

All other units are priced correctly except Cruisers, which either need to go down by 1-2 points or give them ASW like subs, or give them a AA gun in the first round ( one ship gets one sot at planes at 1 before first round) and keep the price at 12.

Also, add in the mech infantry as they are along with tactical bombers.

Why don’t you come up with a better name than “tech” and stop complaining about it? The name that tech is called doesn’t matter. That’s aesthetics. We can deal with it later. Please, drop the issue.

On the other hand, the 6 point tank I could be willing to try. I am not saying its a good idea, but I haven’t tried it.

As for the Advanced artillery, I have already given 2 alternatives to the 3/3 that is “too close to tanks”: making them have a surprise strike first round of combat at 3 (AARe german 88s) or makiong them support infantry to attack and defend with 3. As to the comment about that making them the same as tanks, look at jet fighters. Jet fighters attack wit the same power as bombers but have less range. A 3/3 heavy artillery would attack with the same as tanks but have less range. Tanks power is their speed. A 6 point 3/3 unit with 1 move would be pointless.

Unless we have purchased AAP40 and AAE40, tac bombers and mech inf wouldn’t work since we DON’T HAVE ANY!

An 11 point cruiser could fly with me. Also @ CJ’s idea for ASW tech: consider adding AA and increased bombard power. - or - maybe a tech called Improved fleet Logistics (or whatever) - your cruisers can now detect subs, and fire 1 additional shot @1 at planes, your destroyers may transport 1 infantry unit in non combat.

I am not complaining about tech, rather to eliminate what is not tech and make them NA’s because thats what they are. I advocate separation of the two ideas.

War bonds is an Allied NA’s

Lend Lease is an American NA

Heavy Tanks is a technology

and so on.

Artillery that is 3-3-1-4 is a game breaker. People would forget buying infantry entirely, but since their is no 5 point unit and a 4 and 6 point land unit it fits the script to find a 5 Point unit.

But to justify it it has to make sence… so 3-2-2-5 seems to work if you were forced to come up with “advanced artillery” But since no such thing ever existed ever, it might be better to come up with technology that did exist like heavy tanks, sonar, radar, codebreakers, etc…

That conveys the flavor of the war better. Anybody can just insert all sorts of bogus ideas that never existed and calm them ‘greater options’ or ‘play variability’ , but then what is stopping Godzilla and Space Cruiser Yamato as Technology? They also never existed.

We use better artillery pieces now than we did back then. The technology of artillery has improved. You seem to be saying that artillery technology can be improved. More advanced artillery guns would fight better. Advanced artillery qualifies as a tech just as much as heavy tanks. Any nation could have improved their artillery. It had nothing to do with NA. I agree that When I first saw the ide for 3/3 artillery I thought why build infantry. This suggestion was just one of my ideas. I actually prefer this idea. Artillery get surprise fire first round of combat @3 (offense, maybe defense if too weak) (This is to represent artillery guns that can shoot farther and hit the enemies before they can shoot back).
Just because it didn’t exist, doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been developed. Axis and Allies is not a game about recreating World War II. It is an opportunity to try to change history and win as the axis, or stop the axis more quickly. Remember the original name for technology? It was weapons development. More developed weapons fight better.

We use better artillery pieces now than we did back then

yes but back then they didn’t have anything that improved artillery. They always had different types of guns, but developments in technology began to decline static warfare and favor mobile warfare, of which artillery languished in terms of developments. Tanks are what nations saw as having combat utility for technological improvements.

It is obvious to me if not to some that if advanced artillery were never introduced in AA you would have no reason to defend it like this. Mistakes in games should be pointed out and fixed JUST as many have saw the need to alter other aspects of the game like how subs interact with ships. If you can make changes in that regard you can also replace other failing aspects of the rules that make no sence.

Advanced Artillery should be replaced with a REAL technology.

Like Heavy Tanks, self propelled artillery, sonar, radar, codebreakers, atomic bombs, etc… these are real technologies. Its a shame to preclude a real vital technology that EXISTED in favor of a contrived useless technology that did not. right?

Just because it didn’t exist, doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been developed. Axis and Allies is not a game about recreating World War II. It is an opportunity to try to change history

Good then add NAZI flying Saucers then?  Add Lazer guided turrets on the battleships and let the battleships fly in space… that can be a tech too?

The point is to be consistent and that it does not preclude the ‘opportunity’ to alter History. Axis and Allies is a game based on WW2 and can as such ALSO allow different outcomes. I have no idea why you feel these run against each other.

@Imperious:

We use better artillery pieces now than we did back then

Advanced Artillery should be replaced with a REAL technology.

Like Heavy Tanks, self propelled artillery, sonar, radar, codebreakers, atomic bombs, etc… these are real technologies. Its a shame to preclude a real vital technology that EXISTED in favor of a contrived useless technology that did not. right?

This makes alot of sence. I would like to see all those techs in the game before war bonds and advanced artillery, which add very little to the game even in terms of strategy. As far as i can tell the only reason people like them is because they are OOB, which of couse is an absurd reason.  Same thing with making escorts and intercetors techs.

people like them is because they are OOB, which of course is an absurd reason.

exactly! Just because it’s a mistake should not require people to keep it in making house rules. Its not like it adds GREATER OPTIONS than say a REAL TECHNOLOGY.

if the game was broken or imbalanced you fix THAT PROBLEM.

If you feel the game should allow greater options, then add MORE OPTIONS. Artillery boosting 2 inf rather than 1 is not really an option changer. If planes boost 6 IPC tanks +1 by introducing “Blitzkrieg” as a technology you could have some interesting changes in play. Or if you took a technology that actually existed but was not included, you could also have a greater option to ‘alter the outcome’

Thats the whole reason why the technology became optional because the ideas are rather sketchy. If your house ruling technology because of dissatisfaction with it you would look at all the OOB rules and keep the best parts of it and reconfigure it to something sensible. Advanced Artillery is the most glaring mistake… it it was advanced it would move 2 spaces not “boost 2 infantry rather than one” right?

“What’s in a name…?”

Technology…Weapons Development…National Advantages

Advanced Artillery…Heavy Artillery

Heavy Tanks…Advanced Tanks

We just want to play a fun game, and while being historical is important, I’ll grant you that, arguing over names is just splitting hairs.
The problem is that with House Rules, one can personalize the way that one wants to play with one’s own circle of players, but the problem is that when one wants to create House Rules for many players so that many players could enjoy them, one must have a standard.  So, what is the standard for creating house rules for Axis and Allies?..  I submit to you that it is the OOB rules and pieces for Axis and Allies itself.  This means that for one’s house rules to be widely accepted by many players, that one’s house rules should have a basis in the OOB game.  Therefore, since we have a unit called Artillery, and we have an Advanced Artillery technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it, we who want to have fun playing the game, could tweak the unit and/or technology/weapons development/ whatever one wants to call it to be something more useful in the game, more fun to play with, AND yet still somewhat similar to the OOB ruleset while staying simple to implement.  Hence, having Advanced/Heavy Artillery could be a good thing if one is willing to look at it from a proper perspective.

So, how to utilize the Artillery unit AND the Advanced/Heavy Artillery technology in such a way that it is useful, fun, somewhat similar to OOL, AND simple to implement?

Instead of criticizing, let’s come up with some good ideas which follow the above stipulations so that MANY players would like to use them.

Here are a couple of ideas.

Play regular artillery units as per OOB.

Advanced/Heavy Artillery Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your Artillery units are now 3.  Of course, they may still support 1 infantry unit each.  This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.  From this point on, all Artillery units are Advanced/Heavy Artillery units and cost 5 IPCs to produce.  This last line I’m still considering.

Letting artillery or advanced/heavy artillery have preemptive hit is a good idea also, but the specific unit stats may need to be discussed.

I submit to you that it is the OOB rules and pieces for Axis and Allies itself.  This means that for one’s house rules to be widely accepted by many players, that one’s house rules should have a basis in the OOB game.

Sure and here are the other ideas:

Advanced/Heavy Infantry Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your Infantry units are now 3.  This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Tank Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your tanks units are now 4.   This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Fighter Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your fighter units are now 5.    This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Bomber Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack values of your Bomber units are now 5.    This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Battleship Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack values of your Battleships units are now 5.   This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Cruiser Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack values of your Cruisers units are now 4.   This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

etc…

Lets add them too because their is no reason not too. WE now just added a new technology for each and every unit and we did it because they are in the game anyway and its easy. Now i am sure their is not reason why we should exclude other units into our ‘advanced category’ and we no longer have to adhere to what actually existed as a technology right?

I am guessing that is correct based on previous discussion?

What do you think of these? I guess every unit can be “advanced” just by calling it such and adding things to it, but its not very realistic or creative from a framework of “adding options to allow alternative outcomes”

@Imperious:

I submit to you that it is the OOB rules and pieces for Axis and Allies itself.  This means that for one’s house rules to be widely accepted by many players, that one’s house rules should have a basis in the OOB game.

Sure and here are the other ideas:

Advanced/Heavy Infantry Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your Infantry units are now 3.  This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Tank Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your tanks units are now 4.   This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Fighter Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack and defense values of your fighter units are now 5.    This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Bomber Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack values of your Bomber units are now 5.    This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Battleship Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack values of your Battleships units are now 5.   This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

Advanced/Heavy Cruiser Technology/Weapons Development/whatever one wants to call it– The attack values of your Cruisers units are now 4.   This change strengthens an otherwise pretty weak technology/weapons development/whatever one wants to call it.

etc…

Lets add them too because their is no reason not too. WE now just added a new technology for each and every unit and we did it because they are in the game anyway and its easy. Now i am sure their is not reason why we should exclude other units into our ‘advanced category’ and we no longer have to adhere to what actually existed as a technology right?

I am guessing that is correct based on previous discussion?

What do you think of these? I guess every unit can be “advanced” just by calling it such and adding things to it, but its not very realistic or creative from a framework of “adding options to allow alternative outcomes”

I think that over the course of WWII, probably just about every single starting unit/weapon saw at least some impovement in it by the time that the war had ended, so as long as it is done in a simple-yet-close-to-OOB way, then I would be happy if every single unit in Axis and Allies had some sort of upgrade which could be researched/developed/whatever one wants to call it.  The key thing is to keep it simple yet also make it fun to use where it adds to the playability of the game.

@cousin_joe:

With AA50 OOTB rules, any donkey of a player can roll 5 IPC for Tech, score Heavy Bombers, and proceed to win the game.  Did he outstrategize his opponent?  No. He just got lucky.  This is why most tournaments don’t even use Tech, as it just kills the whole competitive nature of the game.

Back to the topic of the OP.

First, trying to establish a bit of credibility, as you can see I have over 10,000 posts to this site as I have played a number of games PBF.  By my count, in playing 1v1 AA50 with a wide variety of players, I have played 38 games, winning 30 of them.  I have seen a lot of A&A action, and have played many games of Classic and Revised in years gone by.

Just my opinion, but I disagree whole-heartedly with the original premise that techs are not viable for competitive play.  Tech is a default in league play on this site, although no tech is permissable as well.  Any donkey of a player can roll 5 IPC for tech and score heavy bombers, yes, but after that part, I disagree.  The other donkey of a player will also be rolling tech, and with the token rule where researchers are never lost almost ensures techs on both sides.  Several techs help take away the sting of your opponent’s heavy bombers, even before the latest FAQ nerf, which was totally unnecessary, in my opinion.  Tech doesn’t “kill the whole competitive nature of the game” by any stretch of my imagination.  It enhances it.  I never cease to be amazed at how everyone always picks on heavy bombers as the end all be all tech.  Many techs are situational, and depend on the timing, country who acquired it, country’s income, and country’s units already in play.  Isn’t it obvious?  Russia starts with 3 AA guns, so if she gets Rockets in the first turn, look out.  Tech is prolific in AA50 with the researcher rules and increased income.  It is common to have about 15-20 techs in play at round 10.  So what if America gets heavy bombers in round 1?  Japan may get improved shipyards early, and Germany get mech infantry at a key time, and it pretty much balances out.  Improved shipyards, increased production, and radar all serve to deaden the sting of heavy bombers.  Not to mention interceptor rules, which I normally play with.

I have played several games both ways, but mostly play with OOB tech.  When not in league play, I play with some slightly altered OOB tech.  My current preferences that I play with my closest A&A friend:

1)  Increased production is +1 on 1 and 2 IPC value territories (not + 0 as per errata - why should India be 5 and Burma and FIC 2 with the tech?)
2)  War bonds - best of 2 dice
3)  LRA - +1 (not +2)  LRA is the most powerful tech even when Heavy bombers are 2 hit heavies, in most situations.  LRA coupled with 2 hit heavies is over-the-top, I’m sure most would agree.  +1 LRA helps a lot with this.  +1 LRA is still very powerful.
4)  Heavy bombers - 2-hit heavies.  I find it funny that the OOB rulebook is totally ambiguous about whether heavy bombers can score 2 hits or not.  I had to ask Krieg in the FAQ and errata thread.  This was before the latest errata.  Krieg said they were 2-hit heavies.  Then the errata came out, and made heavy bombers weak, weak, weak.  Jeez, in the original game they were THREE dice and 3-hit heavies.  Of course, with the right tech, infantry could be built for 2 IPC’s each, and there was no limit to production on any original complexes!

That said, I like your idea of improving the game with more realistic techs.  Speaking of which, I would like IL to describe how Godzilla could be implemented into the game, or German flying saucers.  For Godzilla, maybe after getting the tech, you build him for 15 IPC’s, and he’s a 6-6-1 unit that attacks twice each round.  So automatically scores 2 hits each round.  Only one can be built at a time - when he’s destroyed, you can build him again.  My point is, house rules or modifications can be very fun, whether realistic or not.  You just have to find someone to agree to play you with them.

IL, since you like mech infantry and tacs and stuff, you just need to get going on the 1940 game once Europe is available!  Then house rule it all you want, and you’ll have the most fun WWII themed board game yet!