3 Key Allied Territories (Epl, Per, Novo)


  • @DarthMaximus:

    A J stack is safe in Eve.  They simply move to Ural and the forces in Chi are wasted.  A decent Novo stack forces either one Massive J stack coming from the Central or North, OR TWO Large stacks.  And two large stacks takes more time, time the Allies may need to set up their UK/US shuck.

    Are you talking about huge stacks of mostly infantry lumbering around?  I have no idea what you’re talking about, because in my 30 games of AA50 so far, I really have never seen “huge” stacks of Japs trudging around Russia and India and what not.  I guess I play more “lightning war” than huge stacks of infantry.

  • Moderator

    @Zhukov44:

    For me, the Russian lurch is a simulateneous advance into Belorussia and East Ukraine, followed by an advance on East Poland.  Sometimes, depending on circumstance, they will go to Ukraine instead of E. Ukraine.  The important part is stacking Belorussia to make German stacks in Karelia or East Poland vulnerable.

    Yeah, Belo is a nice spot if Germany is going after Kar, and if you can move to Belo and Euk (or Ukr) all the better.  :-)

    @Zhukov44:

    However it’s hard to actually hold Novo (beyond the 6 dudes retreating from Siberia) and Persia and also accomplish this offensive in the Eastern front.

    I usually have to wait for Allied help in Europe.  I try to stop the Ger/Ita advance, while Russia retreats out East, and I usually end up building up in Moscow for a bit.  But if all goes well the UK/US start to take over the heavy lifting in Europe and I’ll then pull back the some of Russian forces and eventually turn them all on to Japan.  Persia is a bit of a wild card, if you can hold together your initial units you can delay long enough for Allied help, usually via North Africa.  But if Japan goes all out for Ind/Per early you might not be able to hold there, in which case maybe you can set up the US shuck to Cauc if you are dire need of troops.

    @gamerman01:

    I’m not talking about stacking, though.  Your post is talking stack this, stack that, stack everything.  Do you play no tech or something?  The only time I see stacking going on is in no tech.
    I wasn’t talking about stacking Chi.  I was saying it has strategic importance, and moreso than Nov.
    But if your play style ends up with you and your opponent with huge stacks everywhere, that’s not the kind of game I play, so you’re talking apples and I’m talking oranges.

    Correct, I play no tech.  But I was just using ‘stack’ as a generic term.  Heck, a stack could be as little as 2-3 inf.  It only has to be as big as what the enemy can threaten you with.  If Japan can send 4 tanks at you then you only need 4-5 inf in your ‘stack’.

    @gamerman01:

    Maybe you’re like an opponent I’m playing right now who buys like 10 infantry every single turn with Russia no matter what the situation is (slight exaggeration, but not much).  So yes, depending on how you play, I think which territories are strategic is actually not a static thing.  It depends on the players, and whether you’re playing with tech or not.  Don’t you think?

    Tech makes a difference, but there are strategic territories that will hold true for most games.

    Much of my play revolves around controlling the center of the board.  90% of all A&A games will be determined by the fall of Moscow or the fall of Berlin.  Almost all major action of the game takes place in Europe, the Med, and Western Russia.  Everything else is a byproduct of how good/bad this is going.  Bad for the Allies, then more trns in the Atlantic for the UK/US to help, or threaten Japan, etc.  Bad for Axis, then Japan better step up and help and either take out Mos or threaten the US, or threaten Afr, etc.

    The reason I like Epl in Europe is b/c I think if I can get it then the threat to Moscow from both Ger and Ita is gone.  I don’t have to worry about defending north or south, I can simply pump units into one spot Epl until I have enough for a 1-2-3 attack on Pol or force Germany to deadzone Pol.  Either way good for the Allies.  Once Pol is deadzoned you can go 3 on 1 vs. Japan if Berlin is too well defended to take b/c you now have the economic adv and time is now on your side.

    Obviously if something opens up in Fra or Ita you can take it, but I really like the ability of having 1-2-3 attacks and if you focus on Fra too early you run the risk of the Axis isolating Moscow then turtling in Berlin/Rome.  But if Germany can keep the Allies out of Eastern Europe long enough then it is likely Japan will take Moscow and now you better be able to take Belin/Rome down or else the yellow monster will get you.

    @gamerman01:

    Are you talking about huge stacks of mostly infantry lumbering around?  I have no idea what you’re talking about, because in my 30 games of AA50 so far, I really have never seen “huge” stacks of Japs trudging around Russia and India and what not.  I guess I play more “lightning war” than huge stacks of infantry.

    They don’t have to be huge stacks, just enough to either deter an attack or deadzone the nearby territories.
    Inf are one of the best ways to counter “lightning war”.  Your opponent spends 5 ipc on tanks and you are only spending 3.  It is cheaper to defend so if you can hold a terrirtory, any territory that you think is key you should do so b/c at that point (the point at which it is safe to move your army) for every 3 ipc you add in defense, your opponent will have to spend 4 ipc to make you move.  A generic small example is, to kill 3 inf (9 ipc) your opponent needs to commit about 13-14 ipc (3 inf, 1 rt or arm) worth of units.  But the ratio of 4:3 (attacker ipcs:defender ipcs) holds true, particularly for larger scale battles.

    My theory with the 3 territories in this thread is you can try to create a ‘secure zone’ for Russia while you try to level the economic playing field elsewhere on the board and ultimately turn it in your favor.  You try and grab superior position first then worry about the other stuff.  I guess you could probably turn this into a side debate of position vs. economy.

  • '16 '15 '10

    @DarthMaximus:

    The reason I like Epl in Europe is b/c I think if I can get it then the threat to Moscow from both Ger and Ita is gone.  I don’t have to worry about defending north or south, I can simply pump units into one spot Epl until I have enough for a 1-2-3 attack on Pol or force Germany to deadzone Pol.  Either way good for the Allies.  Once Pol is deadzoned you can go 3 on 1 vs. Japan if Berlin is too well defended to take b/c you now have the economic adv and time is now on your side.

    What are you assuming the Allies control at this point?  Economic advantage depends on the situation in Africa and in the Pacific.  Once Japan has Siberia and China, Allies are hard pressed to hold the economic advantage even if they control Africa.

    Time is not necessarily on the Allies’ side…actually I think the opposite is the case, and Allies need to be aggressive.


  • @Zhukov44:

    Time is not necessarily on the Allies’ side…actually I think the opposite is the case, and Allies need to be aggressive.

    This has been my experience, as well.  Kind of the opposite of the old games.

    Axis can often hold onto 6-8 NO’s at once.  Too many turns of this spells death for Allies.

    I understand your “center of the board” idea and key territories of Epl, Per, and Novo assumes that Russia is the end all - be all.  As you said, 90% of games hang on whether Berlin or Moscow falls.

    This has not been my experience.  Many of the games I’ve been in are decided before any capital falls.  If the Allies can’t get enough of their NO’s going, and can’t stop the Axis from getting 6-8 NO’s per turn, it doesn’t matter if Allies hold EPl, Per and Novo.

    As Zhukov said, time is not necessarily on the Allies’ side.  The days of hanging onto Moscow at all costs until the US and UK save the day, are over.  Now it’s more like the Axis try to hang on in Europe until Japan saves the day, many times.

  • Moderator

    I agree with both of you that time is not on the Allies side to start or for much of the early game, but they can flip it, usually when Russia is able to get her big NO.  If you can get it by turn 3 or 4 that is great (but not likely to happen in the vaste majority of games), but if I’m doing well, I usually see it come into play in maybe rd 5-7 or so.

    I also agree that the Allies need to be aggressive, you can’t just sit back and wait for help early on.  But that doesn’t mean you can’t target key territories.

    I guess my question to you guys would be, how are the Allies winning in your games?  You can assume whatever bid you want for a fair game.

    Do you see loading up going for Fra or Nwe with heavy landings?
    Taking Rome first?
    SBR raids of doom?
    KJF?

    I’ve just found it much harder for the direct landing in Fra or Rome plus I don’t like to separate the 3 Allies.  Even if the Allies are winning ‘quicker games’ how are they doing it???


  • @DarthMaximus:

    I guess my question to you guys would be, how are the Allies winning in your games?  You can assume whatever bid you want for a fair game.

    Do you see loading up going for Fra or Nwe with heavy landings?

    Sometimes.  I think it’s sometimes most effective for the UK to build up a landing force that is greater than 8 ground units (the maximum building capacity) to threaten multiple territories.  It’s often not a good idea to land 6-8 units a turn, but to build up more than that so a major landing can take place (sounds like I’m describing D-Day - I guess that makes sense)  Sometimes Berlin itself can be taken, without piddling around with NWE and France.

    Taking Rome first?

    A so-called KIF - very rare in my experience.  No, Allied wins in my games are usually what you described - Russia getting the big NO for a few turns (or more), usually with the UK taking over Scandinavia, and Russia picking up Bulgaria, or the UK getting Poland, or Balkans.  Although, this is much, much easier in '42 when Britain comes after G and before R than in '41.  I don’t play that much '41.

    SBR raids of doom?

    Heh - not usually.  As Allies, I don’t do much SBR, and as Axis, I’ve only been the recipient a few times.  Once, I was playing a champion player, and he sent in quite a few American bombers every turn early, but my AA never hit him.  Obviously, when AA never hits, SBR works great.  I think it’s risky, and not my method of choice.

    KJF?

    J is almost never K’d.  :lol:
    But I have the minority opinion that there is a LOT of money at stake in the Pacific, and that leaving Japan alone is a mistake, unless you have some unstoppable KGF strat.  The NO for UK is very significant, and the one for USA as well.  It is not uncommon to undo J’s NO for the 6 territories, and sometimes reclaim the Phillipines as well.  It doesn’t take that much for the USA to dance with the Japs in the Pacific and make some progress, and cause some headaches.  I am loathe to let Japan off the hook and just do whatever she wants to terrorize the UK and Russia, and sometimes even the USA.

    I enjoy the thoughtful discourse and ideas you put out here, Darth.  I hope my experiences are helpful, or at least interesting to you, too.

  • '16 '15 '10

    @DarthMaximus:

    I guess my question to you guys would be, how are the Allies winning in your games?  You can assume whatever bid you want for a fair game.

    Do you see loading up going for Fra or Nwe with heavy landings?
    Taking Rome first?
    SBR raids of doom?
    KJF?

    Assuming fairly equal competition, Allied wins typically require either dice luck or Axis errors, even minor ones.

    Common traits of Allied wins include an aggressive Russia, and aggressive landings in France and/or Italy before Western Axis can build up their defenses.  If Allies gang up on Germany/Italy, they don’t necessarily need to make 1:1 trades…they can afford to takes losses for positional and NO benefits.  It ought to be hard for Axis to stack Germany, France, and Italy and still hold Poland and the German NOs.


  • Not sure about Epl. Certainly its great if Russia can hold Epl but I dont think its a reasonable goal in most games. Its too hard to hold Epl against a good Germany player and if Russia is ever able to hold Epl it means Axis are on the fast track to losing.


  • Persia to me is definitely the most critical to hold.  Novo is probably #2.  Those two territories seem like THE game, everything else seems minor when compared


  • @Zhukov44:

    @DarthMaximus:

    The reason I like Epl in Europe is b/c I think if I can get it then the threat to Moscow from both Ger and Ita is gone.  I don’t have to worry about defending north or south, I can simply pump units into one spot Epl until I have enough for a 1-2-3 attack on Pol or force Germany to deadzone Pol.  Either way good for the Allies.  Once Pol is deadzoned you can go 3 on 1 vs. Japan if Berlin is too well defended to take b/c you now have the economic adv and time is now on your side.

    What are you assuming the Allies control at this point?  Economic advantage depends on the situation in Africa and in the Pacific.  Once Japan has Siberia and China, Allies are hard pressed to hold the economic advantage even if they control Africa.

    Time is not necessarily on the Allies’ side…actually I think the opposite is the case, and Allies need to be aggressive.

    An interesting concept, since in all the other versions of Axis and Allies, unless the game was over or practically over, the allies had a economic advantage.


  • While those two territories are essential, taking Germany is crucial, and often impossible. Facing off against Germany when simply nailing Japan is far easier. The Axis player is expecting you to go for his capital, especially with a Gbr to Kar via Nor/Fin, and US to Ita via Alg. I think that once you have Ger crippled, a 4inf/4arm Gbr shuck into Nwe/Pol is perfect, especially as US takes Africa, and threatens Ita. Once Italy falls, and she must fall to the US, holding Egy becomes key. Actually, I should say, TAKING egy becomes key. If you can move your fleet down into the Indian Ocean and force Japan onto her heels, the game is yours.


  • eastern ukraine
    if helf by germans you’ll lose either moscow or caucasus


  • @Frontovik:

    eastern ukraine
    if helf by germans you’ll lose either moscow or caucasus

    Perhaps for a round Caucasus can fall, but not necessarily the game loser as you might be implying.

    EUK is like West Russia in Revised in terms of pressuring both Moscow and Caucasus.

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