South African Launch

[oysteilo]

Ok, so how do you keep Suez open when you withdraw everything to 81 and italy moves in with everything they have to sz 98 and takes transfer Jordan and Syria? Italy takes Alex and they can close it again on italy 2. Meanwhile germany takes southern France and builds a carrier to support the Italians. I don’t see how you keep Suez open. Then your fleet sits in the red Sea doing nothing until uk5 or so.

[Tirano]

If I am Forcing German Naval builds in the med and am tieing up part of the Luftwaffe then that is pressure off of Russia which is what an Atlantic landing is all about in my opinion. Therefore I’ll GLADLY wait till UK5 if I accomplish that. Plus If I have an IC in Persia hopefully I can build 3Mech there and that+ the RAF stationed on Carriers should be able to liberate Transjordan.  Also any Luftwaffe Strafe Runs on my fleet are suicide as I Have at least 3 carriers possibly a Battleship that can absorb the Hits, because they will heal at start of UK turn due to Naval Base.

[WILD BILL]

@Tirano:

Also another side strategy that works well with this is the Typical minor IC in Persia (only if Europe side takes it).  This allows Mech and Tank to be built there and either directly help out the Russians, Or allows you to Move the Mech and Tanks over to TransJordan and then to Egypt if you like. But even in TransJordan they can effectively be picked up by your fleet in SZ81. I’ll add the Persian idea to my OP once on my PC.

Just to point out that UK is one power, and Persia would fall under UK Europe control regardless of if an inf from the Pac side activated it.

I’m not into bids that place units on the board at set-up used to def or attack in the opening round, like more warships around England to def against the Germans, or subs in the Med so UK can kill the Italian fleet easier. When we do a bid for the allies we generally add bid IPCs to the starting income of the power(s) getting the bid, and they use it to buy units or facilities as normal in their opening buy. In doing so you also follow the rules for placement of new units/facilities (needing an IC for units, or owning the territory from the beginning of your turn for facilities). This would probably work for you because most of your bid wasn’t used in the attacks, although you could have if you chose to. Could get the Egypt IC in the bid, and place the carrier transport and art in S African IC.

This strat seems pretty solid IMO, and the UK is my favorite power to play. You are tying together several good known UK moves together. Defending London against Sea Lion is most important. An IC in Cairo, maybe Persia will strengthen your position in the Med/Mid East. Utilizing the S African IC to shuck-shuck units to reinforce Egypt/Mid East is great. Pulling back and sparing the UK Med fleet to come back much stronger to make a difference later is controversial, but can be effective.

I agree that leaving the Italians whole (other then sz96) could become somewhat of a problem for you when you want to come back into the Med. If the Italians close the Suez they have a chance to get 2, maybe all three of their NO’s with 2 transports surviving the opening round (short lived as that might be). They can also make gains in N Africa, and reinforce it with Italian ground, and Germans planes. However it has been my experience that at some point Italy will make a critical mistake leaving their fleet exposed once they leave the air cover of their home port (my UK will normally have a lot of air power in the Med).

I also like to build an AB for Egypt to help defend both Egypt and Trans Jordan from amphibs. Even if they manage close the straight if you just drop a couple destroyers in sz98 with air cover the Italians will think twice about coming back over unless they have also built a carrier by then. They need to compensate for your ability to scramble by tossing a couple planes into the sea battle (making their land battle weaker), then worry about your probable counter attack on the navy.

You are also stripping India (but I normally do that too LOL).

[Tirano]

Thanks, for your Feedback Wildbill, but if a man from UK Pac takes Persia wouldn’t the IPCs be awards to Pacific economy meaning Europe Economy couldn’t build an IC there?

Or does it work where anything on Europe side of map goes to Europe economy and vice Vera’s for Pacific?

Thanks in Advance :-D

Also I realize that I’m tying several moves together, I simply thought most would not do this, or consider this as their actual “D-Day” staging point.  Plus as mentioned it is only 2 moves from Calcutta, so if Japan is about to hit 6 cities and Calcutta has fallen you can look to potentially liberate it.  There are simply several options here.  This would stage very well with Young Grasshopper’s Spanish Beachhead and you simply make your initial landing in Turkey while America goes to Spain. After that you can move to take Greece or to go Rome, or build an IC there…. Options galore here.

[WILD BILL]

As far as the UK goes it is one power with two Economies, there are no Euro units, or Pac units only UK units. All territories on the Europe map goes to the UK Europe econ (including Persia). All territories on the Pac map goes to the UK Pac econ. The only exceptions are that West India is given to the Pac, and all of Canada (BC/Yukon) is given to Europe.

I like a strong UK presence in the Med and Middle East, it gives you a lot of flexibility as you have pointed out. You also have good points about UK staging amphibs into Rome, S France, and Spain (or Calcutta if necessary).

[Tirano]

Thanks @WildBill I was oblivious to how that worked.  You can also do landings in Yugo or Greece if Italy and/or Germany did not take them.

[WILD BILL]

@Tirano:

Thanks @WildBill I was oblivious to how that worked.  You can also do landings in Yugo or Greece if Italy and/or Germany did not take them.

No problem, a lot of players don’t get how the UK works, glad to set you straight.

Not sure it is in the best interest for UK to make landings in Yugo or Greece early even if they are still pro-allies. You can’t land planes there yet to protect your ground units (territory not yours at the beginning of your turn), and the axis have way too much that can hit you. Anyway there aren’t too many games where Yugo or Greece isn’t taken by Germany/Italy in the first couple turns. You of course can attack them once they are axis, which will force the axis to defend the Balkans as well as multiple other territories you can make landing in.

[Kreuzfeld]

this seem fairly decent as far as a stratigy. I am just worried about a sealion. Since you are not using your Carrier on UK1, you might do a slight change in your plans… You could build 1 inf and 1 ftr for England and 1 inf for Cairo.  This should give you a very simliar result, with less risk. You can then build 4-5 inf in UK + IC in egypt in UK1, and you can build your carrier on UK2.  This will give you a little more flexibilty when it comes to sealion (more defence if you need it), and you can transfer your plane to med on UK2. You will have more or less the sma epower in the med from UK3 and onwards.

In general, I belive the center of gravity of the british europe empire in this game should be egypt, iraq and iran. 3 ICs there can produce alot of landunits. you can help out russia and you will just shut italy down.

[Tirano]

That is perhaps an idea. And I completely agree the middles east is where the UK is Strongest. That’s why I love this strategy so much. I would love for other people to try it in their groups and see if they have had the success with it that I have had.

[taamvan]

Good morning Mr. T!  Surprised that you are so focused right now on the G40 scenario since we are putting all our computing power down on the G42 analysis.

People here have laid out some conditions for the bid, but at least at the Gencon tourney, the rule is

place whole units, no left over IpCs
where you have like units
without limit to type or number per territory

This also means that certain bids are mathematically inconvenient or even partially useless (such as 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13 etc) because they can only be used to place one or two certain unit or combination of units.

On the rest, I think some of the commenters here are right;  You can’t under turtle the UK London square, and buying either industrial complex in Persia or Egypt is a risk (tho primarily without the bases or bid) not simply because it becomes a target for takeover/SB but also because it takes a large commit of money over time, money you will be spending each turn.  What can happen there is you may drop some men on the UK sensing that Germany cannot Sealion you, but a strong German player can APPEAR not to be preparing for sea lion; or even not be thinking much about Sea Lion…until he sees you commit to a factory elsewhere.  Germany can ramp its forces extremely quickly, can drop as many as 10 transports at a time.  He has all the land and air pieces he needs to invade you, free, from the beginning of the game.  It only takes him one turn to buy transports, reshuffle his tanks and build infantry (in Wgermany), land his air there, and he can destroy you on G3, G4, G5…and so on.

The biggest misconception is that Sea Lion has to be your plan.  It can be a combination of a bluff, power projection and a contingency plan.  Even when it never goes off;  it still means you have to be careful where you place your UK fleets and what you buy (since Germany can use the WGer airforce and any naval units to shellac your fleet, wherever you build it).

I also misunderstood the allocation of territory but its very simple;  the board split splits west and east.  Everything west of the board split belongs to W UK and everything east of the split belongs to UK PAC.

See you at Gencon bro.

[Tirano]

taam, am very pleased to see your response (was hoping you would have some insight).  So it seems that the concern that most people have here is Sea Lion.  I understand that Sea Lion is a very real concern, but I have also reached the conclusion that Germany performing operation Sea Lion is to the benefit of the Allies.  As the British player you of course are very scared of Sea Lion, but in my games Ive found that if Germany goes Sea Lion, they lose.  It is especially the case in this Strategy, and double so if the Americans go full Europe build in first several rounds.  The Reasons are as such:

• Germany is not building against Russia, now this is obvious but it is oh so ever true.  Every turn and every IPC that is not spent on Russia increases the chance that Moscow stands.

• Not a for sure thing. UK starts with 7 defending land units on its square in addition to the 5 I recommend buying on UK1.  Also you typically have 1 Transport survive in the Atlantic and I suggested having it shuttle the Canadians over. This means that end of UK2 you are looking at 14 Defending Land units plus 3 fighters and 5 AA.  Germany can of course have 10 transports with 20 attacking units and around 10 Aircraft ready but it is no guarantee seeing as the British will surely buy 10 Inf in response to a heavy transport buy from Germany.  That means you are looking at for the British 23 defending @2, 1 defending @3, and 3 defending @4 plus your 5 AA.  Against a German Attack of probably 5 inf @1, 10 art/inf @2, 10 tanks/fighters @3, and 5 bombers @ 4.  Put that on the calculator as a must take territory and its 50.3% for Germany, Hardly worth it (link included). http://goo.gl/H2t3ow

• London simply cant be held even if successful.  The Americans can easily liberate London, whereas Moscow is extremely hard to liberate once captured.

• Some might say that sea lion is worth it even if liberated just to destroy a major IC, but with this strategy 90% of your income all game will be spent in Africa and the Middle East so the fact your major IC was destroyed is of little concern.

  So to me as an allied player I love to see Germany go sea lion.

  As for my interest in G40 over G42, the more I look at G42 setup and board, the more it makes me love G40.

  Cannot wait to meet you at Gencon taam, cheers 8-)

[WILD BILL]

Just for kicks I ran your numbers through David Skelly’s calc.

Germany
10 inf, 5 art, 5 tanks, 5 ftrs, 5 tacs, 2 bmrs (w/10 tpts). They could also get cruiser and BB shot.

UK
23 inf, 1 tank, 3 ftrs, 5 AAA

Got around 74% win for Germany (over 80% if they get the cruiser & BB shot).

Add a ftr to UK and Germany is favored 58% (66% w/cruiser & BB shot)

The Germans could have 11 transports though and 2 more ground units would raise all those figures by 10 (80% becomes 90% and so on)

It would be rather costly for the Germans as they would prob be killing off a few air units at the end of the battle. I know we don’t see too many Sea Lions because of this cost and the Russian hoards that will be coming (not to mention the USA). With that said every now and again the Germans have to attempt it just to keep the UK honest, so if you leave an opening they very well might take it. Plus they could SBR you G2 making your defense even worse (German risk also involved in SBR).

You said several things about the aftermath if the Germans do Sea Lion.

• Moscow stands, and the Russians will be coming–-no doubt, but I have seen the Germans def and regain initiative.

• As pointed out above I think the numbers are much better then you think for a German Sea Lion.

• The US can liberate London easily–That depends on where the US spent their income, what kind of fleet they have on the Euro side, and how quickly they can redirect (after Germany drops transports G2). The US very well could be held out of the war until London is taken locking them down in DC. It could be US3 before they could move to Gib, then US4 to attempt a liberation.

• Your last bullet point is a little concerning. You basically said a successful Sea Lion won’t effect your strat much because you don’t really need a major IC in London (once liberated) because most of your purchases go to Africa and the Mid East.

When Germany drops transports in the water G2, as you said UK probably spends all its income in London UK2. No income UK3 if London goes down. On US4 London is liberated so England would regain its empire UK4, but won’t have any income to spend (collects end of UK4). So UK5 they can finally buy units again, but those purchases hit the board at the end of UK’s turn so really it is UK6 before they can do anything or go anywhere. Just saying if you lose London your strat goes out the window because you can’t build in any of your minor ICs for quite some time and they become vulnerable to capture. If you can’t build in Egypt, and Italy has most of its fleet intact that’s a problem. With USA going full tilt Euro the Japanese may decide to take out the other half of UK, and become a problem in the Mid East too.

Yeah Germany is going to have a rough time, but Italy and Japan can draw some of the heat, make some gains and help out defensively. Games after a Sea Lion can be really fun for both sides, its like the wild west anything goes lol.

[Tirano]

while I see your point Wild Bill you ran numbers with 2 additional bombers than I did which does draw the averages WAY up. Also typically at least one destroyer survives the battle of the Atlantic which I could use as Blocker or to stop the amphibious shot.  As for the Italians, the UK fleet is large enough at end of UK2 that if London falls your fleet is large enough to wipe out the Italian fleet or at least strong enough that they cant attack it which would allow me to park it in SZ98. Also as an allied player I will gladly be “kept honest” if it means increasing my chance of winning.

[taamvan]

note that WBs ## of UK units is pretty optimal; maybe 1 more fighter or so but thats lime 100% spent on turtle.  no doubt that this is why people feel the bid should help Uk

[WILD BILL]

You can stop the bombardment w/dd from one direction, but the Germans could go around Scotland and hit England from the other side. That isn’t an ideal place for the German navy because they would rather be in Chanel sz110 so they have an option of building an AB to protect their investment. Depends on if the US has a couple loaded carriers in sz102 and some bmrs with in range.

Don’t get me wrong, I like what you have strung together, and I have done many of those things as UK in the past. The fact that you didn’t do Taranto means that the London ftr stayed for home defense instead of going to the Med. I just think I would drop another ftr on London to sure that up better, it can always fly down later. You also gave the UK a damn good bid so there really isn’t any reason to take that risk.

I’m sure you have probably done much of what you posted already. If you have success your opponents will start to look for ways to mess you up.  If you are really strong in one theater, you probably have some weaknesses in others. The axis will look to exploit that, and Sea Lion is a possibility.

[Tirano]

I see what your saying WildBill, and appreciate your feedback  :-) I will keep your ideas in mind.

[Tirano]

@taamvan:

note that WBs ## of UK units is pretty optimal; maybe 1 more fighter or so but thats lime 100% spent on turtle.  no doubt that this is why people feel the bid should help Uk

Sorry taam but I do not understand what you are trying to convey, could you reword it for me, apologies  :-)

[MeinHerr]

The German Kriegsmarine purchase and Sea-Lion threat has to be executed with Egypt/Gib/Middle East and S. Africa money  in Mind.

Japan must wait till J3… for this scenario to work…

Given a good UK defense for a Kriegsmarine buy… then the next target should be Gib for Germany.

If Italian Navy is left untouched on UK1 (except Malta), then on I1 navies combine and take Greece.  Sacrifice 1 TR if Gib is empty… and take Gib
Save $10, collect $21  the $5 bonus almost pays for 2nd TR… (S.Fr + Greece+ Kenya - all S.African forces in Kenya… all N. African forces in Tobruk… do not venture into Alexandria)

G2 -  Land 3 FTRS in Tobruk. Clear English Channel… Non-combat navy to Gib … make sure to keep 1 Tank on TR (unload in Gib)

I2 - with 24, buy CV+2TR … N.Afro-Italians forces go to Alexandria, S. Afro-Italian force to Sudan…
G3- Attack USSR as usual… German Navy to S.France with a 1 TR (Keep Mech+Inf)  build… Bring SBRs to Alexandria

I3 - Unload everything on Egypt… (3 TR loads+ Alex+ Sudan) and take it if possible…
G4 - Reinforce Egypt…make it expensive for Allies to take it back… the original TR + TR buy puts 4 units on Egypt…and the Axis navy by a 1-2 punch can push through the Red Sea and take  S. Africa… or Middle East …and lots of UK money, very quickly… Tank+Mech are deadly on their own with a TaC+SBR… not to mention 2 other TRs that can unload 1 Inf each…

Say is on G5, Madagascar, S. Africa, Tanganyika, Sudan, fall to Germany… or Iraq! and I5 reinforces Iraq… , the bonuses start piling up…

If this is done efficiently, and Egypt falls to Italians…then the Middle-East is in play… If Egypt falls to Germany…then hold Egypt as far as possible… and rush back to block Gibralter.

But this does 5 things…
A) Both Italy and Germany get the $5 bonus a turn (even without the Med)
B) Force UK to build in South Africa… hence less money to help the US fleet, and no money to help USSR
C) Force India to send help West… making its fall all the more easier…
D) Force US to send part of its fleet to take Egypt… making Berlin safer
E) Although Moscow is safer… economically speaking, if India falls on J5/6… and Middle East /S. Africa fall on G5-I5… then Axis will be in a very strong position

[Tirano]

I am very confused how does this play into my South African strategy? Certainly not a counter because some of the moves you recommended would be eliminated for Italy after UK1.  Especially the fact that I Wipe out Ethiopa on UK1.  Maybe I’m missing something though? If so I Apologize :-)

[MeinHerr]

Tirano -

Given that you eliminate Ethiopia… and you build that navy off Egypt…
If 2 of 3 Italian navys are left intact to join…
and the Germany Navy swings around …
The Egyptian navy will either have to sit in the Red Sea… or be obliterated.