G1: How to attack the British navy?

[Young Grasshopper]

This is what I do…

Sea Zone #111

2 Submarines
2 Fighters
2 Tactical Bombers
1 Strategic Bomber

Sea Zone #111

2 Submarines
2 Fighters
2 Tactical Bombers
1 Strategic Bomber
1 Battleship

The battleship in 110 can help absorb hits from planes if there is an aggressive scramble, and splitting the 2 Strategic bombers among both battles ensures that in later combat rounds you’ll get at least 1 plane @4 or less if you lose all your fighters. I also feel that in this configuration, a UK scramble of 3 fighters into 110 is an advantage for Germany, because if the first 2 combat rounds go poorly for Germany… they only need to kill the UK ships and than retreat leaving the UK fighters wanting more, but if the first 2 combat rounds go great for Germany, they can stay in the fight even after the ships are sunk allowing them to calculate risk vs. reward and to decide accordingly… a luxury UK doesn’t have once committing the fighters.

[SubmersedElk]

Doesn’t it make sense for UK to scramble the ftr to 111 if Germany only goes in with 1 sub/bb/ftr/tac/bmb? According to dice calc the scrambled fighter will on average pay for itself and significantly increases the chances of that fight going south for Germany.

I also see a lot of SZ111 strafe attacks that, if the dice go right, will leave just a damaged BB (which can’t be saved from a G2 second strike) and let Germany keep its own BB. Where Germany buys a carrier in G1 saving that BB can pay dividends in securing the German fleet from counters for several rounds. Scrambling the fighter makes it much less likely the German BB survives.

[taamvan]

Thank you YG and SHawk for laying out some optimal deployments.

I really like having the German battleship participate in SZ111, retreat and join the carrier in SZ 112 move, shows that there is still plenty to learn about the game (and how luck, reading your opponent, and trading piece for piece can change your choices).

[Young Grasshopper]

So if a damaged British battleship is left in 111, what are UK player’s options to save it, and what are the German player’s options for killing it on G2?

[SubmersedElk]

Best option to save it is to send it to Iceland, where it can be reached by German bombers and any subs left over after UK1… but it’s awfully inconvenient (they need to land it in Norway) and those bombers can’t participate in counter-Taranto so that often means one extra tac casualty unless Germany rolls well in SZ97. Trying to shelter it in 109 is another option (forces G to bring overkill to account for scramble), or if you have a DD to sacrifice you can send it to 118 and put the DD in 119 to block subs.

Depends to some degree what G builds in G1. If it’s carrier/dd/sub and there are G1 subs left over, then the BB is pretty much as good as dead.

[Spendo02]

Northern SZ:
2 SS
1 FTR (Norway)
1 TAC (Germany)
2 SB (Germany)

English Channel:
1 BB
2 SS
3 FTR (Holland, WGermany)
3 TAC (WGermany)

Send last SS to Canada’s DD and TT.  I prefer to strand the Canadian units in lieu of trying to sink the CR that’s likely hitting the Italians.

Order of losses:
SS when able
Tip BB
FTR
Sink BB
TAC
SB

A tipped BB makes the UK think hard about using its DD and SB to sink it - bigger benefit for Italy if the SB doesn’t fly to the Med and create havoc flying out of Malta early.

I will strafe the LC if I’m going to trade TAC for UK FTR.  Those TAC are more valuable to me in Russia later than trading them for a UK FTR early.

That being said, my singular goal on G1 Naval is sending the entire UK fleet to the bottom.  Germany cannot deal with a Royal Navy later on without trading aircraft for ships for more than a single round or Moscows life expectancy increases dramatically.

If I recall correctly, it’s 85-90% odds for Germany to lose at worst some of its FTR in my order of losses.  Odds get much better with no scramble and any surviving SS is an absolute headache for the UK early.

Note, my G1 purchase is always 1 CV, 1 DD and 1 SS which irrelevant of the outcome of the above battle means I close off the English Channel and threaten Gib early with a NCM of the CR and TT to merge with the ships I bought.

It forces UK purchases in Canada or FTR on UK for the first 2-3 turns while Germany merges the French invasion army with G2 purchases to DOW Russia on G3.

Plenty of alternatives to G1, but this one gives me consistently good results to plan off of.  And nothing is better than making the Allied Europe purchases more predictable.

[simon33]

@Young:

So if a damaged British battleship is left in 111, what are UK player’s options to save it, and what are the German player’s options for killing it on G2?

What about moving to SZ 109 where it can be defended by both airbases? SZ 118 is also an option for retreating to where it can only be reached by Strat Bombers and remaining German fleet.

Much prefer sending the German BB to the northern SZ, SZ 111. That way if you retreat with the UK BB alive it doesn’t get repaired UK1. At least it requires a bit of an effort from the UK to protect it.

[variance]

With bids now getting solidly up into the mid 20s, a lot of things now depend on what kid of starting bid the allies choose.  There will be cases where it may make sense to skip either z110 or z111 and go for the z91 cruiser or even the french ships.

[Spendo02]

@variance:

With bids now getting solidly up into the mid 20s, a lot of things now depend on what kid of starting bid the allies choose.  There will be cases where it may make sense to skip either z110 or z111 and go for the z91 cruiser or even the french ships.

Agreed, we don’t play with bids so the suggestion is purely from the rule set posted on these forums without any bids.

We have discussed using bids but nothing has materialized as of yet.  It does appear that with a solid player behind the Axis Moscow tends to fall in our games.  I have yet to deploy my Allied “Save Moscow” strategy yet except in TripleA against myself.

It typically requires a Persian Minor IC and funneling all UK purchases into FTR that end up flying to Moscow with Russians in full turtle INF purchases until the Germans are 2 rounds from Moscow - then full ART purchases.  The odds turn against the Germans with 60+ INF once there are around 20 ART with them on Moscow.

I basically give up on a landing on Europe as the Allies, accept losing India and go 100% KJF with USA until one side breaks.  Its actually a rather boring game for the Allies as the UK just buys FTR out of Persia, Russians buy INF and the US simply spends and spends in the Pacific playing Cat and Mouse with Japan’s early gains.

[wilk7011]

Do you guys see UK scrambling often or do you try to make it so the risk is to heavy for the UK to scramble?

[SubmersedElk]

@wilk7011:

Do you guys see UK scrambling often or do you try to make it so the risk is to heavy for the UK to scramble?

If the UK scrambles, either a) he didn’t do his math right; or b) you went in too light.

It’s generally a really bad idea for the UK to lose those planes in round 1, they’d need to have an awesome opportunity to set Germany back to make it worthwhile. Keep in mind that the UK really doesn’t know if Germany is going Sealion by that point, no matter what Germany chose to buy.

[simon33]

@SubmersedElk:

@wilk7011:

Do you guys see UK scrambling often or do you try to make it so the risk is to heavy for the UK to scramble?

If the UK scrambles, either a) he didn’t do his math right; or b) you went in too light.

It’s generally a really bad idea for the UK to lose those planes in round 1, they’d need to have an awesome opportunity to set Germany back to make it worthwhile. Keep in mind that the UK really doesn’t know if Germany is going Sealion by that point, no matter what Germany chose to buy.

I don’t see how it is possible to go into all three sea zones heavy enough to prevent a scramble.

[SubmersedElk]

It isn’t. Stick to two and leave the DD and transport on the west side of the UK alone.

The best G1 attacks against the UK navy are

• 2 subs, 3ftr 3tac 1bmb in SZ110
• 2 subs, BB, 1ftr 1 tac, 1bmb in SZ111

If you do the odds on the scramble you’ll see that a scramble into SZ110 is suicide and in SZ111 it’s better but still a generally losing bet, and in light of a possible Sealion it’s a very poor choice.

For the last sub, you have a choice of throwing it against the DD/trans off Canada (my preference) or if you like a little more risk and anticipate your opponent will move in hard against Italy, send it against the cruiser in SZ91.

[ampdrive]

Where do you like to send the 2nd bmbr?
And keep in mind the sub that starts in sz117 can only reach 106 or 109

[cyanight]

@variance:

With bids now getting solidly up into the mid 20s, a lot of things now depend on what kid of starting bid the allies choose.  There will be cases where it may make sense to skip either z110 or z111 and go for the z91 cruiser or even the french ships.

Yea, an extra Scotland fighter (Bid) really throws a wrench in the plans.

[SubmersedElk]

@ampdrive:

Where do you like to send the 2nd bmbr?
And keep in mind the sub that starts in sz117 can only reach 106 or 109

sorry, the 2nd bmb also goes to SZ111, I’ll edit the post above to correct it

[Nippon-koku]

@cyanight:

@variance:

With bids now getting solidly up into the mid 20s, a lot of things now depend on what kid of starting bid the allies choose.�  There will be cases where it may make sense to skip either z110 or z111 and go for the z91 cruiser or even the french ships.

Yea, an extra Scotland fighter (Bid) really throws a wrench in the plans.

Agreed.  Still crazy to me when I hear about bids in the 30s and 40s.  UK can hold onto a lot of fleet under those circumstances.

[SubmersedElk]

@Nippon-koku:

@cyanight:

@variance:

With bids now getting solidly up into the mid 20s, a lot of things now depend on what kid of starting bid the allies choose.�  There will be cases where it may make sense to skip either z110 or z111 and go for the z91 cruiser or even the french ships.

Yea, an extra Scotland fighter (Bid) really throws a wrench in the plans.

Agreed.  Still crazy to me when I hear about bids in the 30s and 40s.  UK can hold onto a lot of fleet under those circumstances.

Not when you take into account that you can only place 1 bid unit per territory, so stacking Scotland with 2 extra fighters is out. Adding one makes SZ111 more treacherous but it’s still in Germany’s favor. You’d have to also bid extra cruisers or BBs to save one or the other, and there are better places to put bid units than that.

[cyanight]

@SubmersedElk:

@Nippon-koku:

@cyanight:

@variance:

With bids now getting solidly up into the mid 20s, a lot of things now depend on what kid of starting bid the allies choose.�  There will be cases where it may make sense to skip either z110 or z111 and go for the z91 cruiser or even the french ships.

Yea, an extra Scotland fighter (Bid) really throws a wrench in the plans.

Agreed.  Still crazy to me when I hear about bids in the 30s and 40s.  UK can hold onto a lot of fleet under those circumstances.Â

Not when you take into account that you can only place 1 bid unit per territory, so stacking Scotland with 2 extra fighters is out. Adding one makes SZ111 more treacherous but it’s still in Germany’s favor. You’d have to also bid extra cruisers or BBs to save one or the other, and there are better places to put bid units than that.

That one extra fighter in Scotland from a bid makes it difficult to take out 110 and 111.  You can get away with either one but you cant do both without risking some serious Luftwaffe losses.

[Nippon-koku]

Yea, an extra Scotland fighter (Bid) really throws a wrench in the plans.

Agreed.�  Still crazy to me when I hear about bids in the 30s and 40s.�  UK can hold onto a lot of fleet under those circumstances.�

Not when you take into account that you can only place 1 bid unit per territory, so stacking Scotland with 2 extra fighters is out. Adding one makes SZ111 more treacherous but it’s still in Germany’s favor. You’d have to also bid extra cruisers or BBs to save one or the other, and there are better places to put bid units than that.

That one extra fighter in Scotland from a bid makes it difficult to take out 110 and 111.  You can get away with either one but you cant do both without risking some serious Luftwaffe losses.

Exactly.  If the Allies took a 26 bid and went ftr in Scotland and an extra DD in 110 and 111 it causes serious problems for Germany.  There may be better places to put units, but these options would help.

I saw someone mention a 40 bid recently and instantly thought “Ok, fighter in Scotland, DD in 111, BB in 110, with 8 ipc to spare!?”