I have successfully done sealion the past 3 games. However, the problem for me has been that Russia is very strong and it’s almost impossible to hold them off. So does anyone have suggestions for stopping Russia?
I am by no means an expert, but my game plan in a Sealion situation is to win in the Pacific. Hold the Russkies off, hopefully divert US forces to Atlantic, then rush for Calcutta/Honolulu with Japan.
Taking London G3/4 basically means you won’t be taking Moscow ever. Europe victory will have to be London/Cairo/Leningrad/Stalingrad.
If you’re playing an experienced Russia player, and the US has a decent presence in the Atlantic, I don’t see any way to hold them off once you take the London.
Once you take London on turn 3 a good Russia player should be able to take Poland, SH and Romania, possibly Finland as well, not to mention they’re marching towards Iraq.
Let’s assume they hold off on Finland and Germany throws a sub in SZ 125 to deny the bonus; at that point Russia is still making 54 at the end of that turn and on its next turn should be in Iraq and Finland. They could upgrade one or two factories to a major and then they’re marching into Germany easily.
Russia can not upgrade any of their factories to Majors because they are on territories that are only 2 IPCs. To upgrade a Minor to a Major, it has to be on a territory worth 3 IPCs or more.
When I play Germany, I tend to not make a dedicated attempt at Sealion. It tends to cost Germany too much in resources and as you have pointed out, Russia gets pretty strong and is hard to hold back, let alone pushing them back into Russia.
Also, a lot of the time the US just comes over and sinks the German navy so that is a lot of IPCs gone. Then they either take London back which leaves you with a lot less units, US and UK coming at you from the west and Russia really strong in the east. Or if they don’t take England back, they just isolate it after killing all your transports so you have a bunch of armor and men stuck on England and doing you no good on the continent.
Most games, I will sink the Royal Navy and bomb the crap out of British facilities, but no invasion. Everything else goes after Russia.
Occasionally, I do get an opportunistic Sealion because UK ends up leaving London woefully under-protected and is perhaps too concentrated in Africa/Middle East. In those cases, Germany doesn’t have to use quite as much in taking London and therefore doesn’t leave themselves weak against Russia.
To more directly answer your question, here are some tactical suggestions that assume a standard-ish G1 of ac/dd/ss:
1. G2, stage all your mobile units in Germany (should be 9 tanks + mech)
2. Use all Nor/Fin/Den inf for the invasion (should be 9)
3. Move all the inf/aa/art you’ve got southeast, to SH and Romania (make sure you bring the Bulgarians with you)
4. Keep the Italian air corps in range to bomb the London airbase I2
The goal here is to prevent Russia from stacking Eastern Poland, still be able to Sealion, and get a headstart on getting to the Balkans, which are what really matter. Poland is the least important territory to defend, as it’s the easiest to retake.
EDIT: You will need more than 9inf/9tank for the invasion, yes (should have 10tt, plus G2 land in Scotland). Keep a few inf back in Germany and use the Paris art to round things out.
To more directly answer your question, here are some tactical suggestions that assume a standard-ish G1 of ac/dd/ss:
1. G2, stage all your mobile units in Germany (should be 9 tanks + mech)
2. Use all Nor/Fin/Den inf for the invasion (should be 9)
3. Move all the inf/aa/art you’ve got southeast, to SH and Romania (make sure you bring the Bulgarians with you)
4. Keep the Italian air corps in range to bomb the London airbase I2
The goal here is to prevent Russia from stacking Eastern Poland, still be able to Sealion, and get a headstart on getting to the Balkans, which are what really matter. Poland is the least important territory to defend, as it’s the easiest to retake.
EDIT: You will need more than 9inf/9tank for the invasion, yes (should have 10tt, plus G2 land in Scotland). Keep a few inf back in Germany and use the Paris art to round things out.
Thanks that’s helpful! What is your strategy in the pacific?
You’re welcome!
Japan is widely considered to be harder to play than Germany, so don’t feel like there’s any kind of silver bullet answer there (nor is there for any country, really). That being said, I am a huge, huge sucker for the J1 DOW, largely due to the writings of the one they call Cow: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26960.0 (his moves in the opening post aren’t 100% accurate, but you get the idea. Rest of the thread is also a good read)
Never interacted with the guy, but he convinced me to try it out. J2/3/4 are all strong in their own ways, but for my play style, I prefer J1. I’ll briefly point out some relevant implications of a J1 DOW
1. The goal is to either win in the Pacific quickly (6-8) or win in Europe normally (~10) with the Japanese helping finish off Cairo. It’s a gambit. If US commits to KJF with all their money, you can’t win in the Pacific. But if they don’t commit enough… :evil:
2. US can completely counter sealion, if it so chooses, so J1 DOW might pair better with G1 openings that forego naval buys (2bom/1ss or all ground for example). US Bombers kill the German navy as soon as they drop in London, US retakes UK shortly after or not at all–Russia can handle Germany alone! However, your Japanese buddies are doing a good job distracting FDR, so don’t rule out Sealion altogether :-)
I’ll leave it at that to limit the focus of this thread to German views on Sealion. More traditional J2/3/4 openings work much better for you if Sealion’s on your mind, because you get to see the all important UK1 before deciding which way to go.
I hope some of that helps. But remember, even if I sound like an expert, I have played way fewer games than most guys here. I just know enough lingo to sound cool :wink:
Russia can not upgrade any of their factories to Majors because they are on territories that are only 2 IPCs. To upgrade a Minor to a Major, it has to be on a territory worth 3 IPCs or more.
You know what? I knew that rule lol. No idea how I forgot to apply it here.
Russia can not upgrade any of their factories to Majors because they are on territories that are only 2 IPCs. To upgrade a Minor to a Major, it has to be on a territory worth 3 IPCs or more.
You know what? I knew that rule lol. No idea how I forgot to apply it here.
Figures that we realize this today. I was all set to upgrade one of those factories in our game lol.
I recently won a game with a sealion with a single transport. It helped that I had 25 aircrafts (15 bombers, 5 fighters and 5 tactical bombers). It also helped that Moscow was completely surrounded and would have fallen in a couple of turns as well. From my perspective you always need to threaten sealion. Make sure your opponent believes the possibility is there. More ipcs spend in London, means less ipcs spend in Egypt and the middle east, which will give you valuable time. Sealion can win you games, but early sealion can only win you games if your opponent isn’t doing anything to stop you (which is highly likely). A late game and well timed sealion can win you games however.
I would say, have Japan attack Russia as much as they can so Russia has to divert units east.
Agree with earlier posters - you aren’t going to stop Russia after a traditional G3/G4 Sealion assuming you are playing an experienced player. It may be wise as the Allied player to invite a Sealion attempt, making Italy’s life miserable in the process.
If you are spending your G2 68 on Sealion, then shipping about 20-22 ground units to London, flying over 15 AA shots, and losing planes to take London, you are not going to stop Russia. Indeed, it is unlikely that you will win, either.
If you can take London cheaper, with fewer transports/ground units and fewer airplanes lost, that can be a different story. Or the same. (Russia bearing down on you anyway) You’ve been warned. :wink:
We had a game once where Germany took London but still lost. What’s more, London was never liberated. The game ended with London in German hands and a stack of 10-12 tanks plus a couple of artillery and men.
The US Air Force flew over and sank the German fleet. With a large US fleet by Gibraltar and Russia hammering at the eastern door, Germany simply couldn’t put any more boats in the water to get those tanks off of England without seeing them sunk as soon as they came off the slip way.
The US took out Italy, liberated France and moved into W Germany while Russia swarmed over the Balkans and Scandanavia. Berlin was simply squeezed out of existence.
The Allies played well that game, despite losing London. I seem to remember that Japan got pretty big and strong in the Pacific, but they simply couldn’t get that crucial 6th VC. The Allies managed to hold them off just enough.
It’s funny. Usually in our games when the Allies (particularly the US) go strong after Germany, Japan tends to have a good old time romping around the Pacific and getting 6 or even 7 VCs before the Allies can take out Germany. It seems so hard sometimes to find just the right mix of “hold-off” spending in the Pacific to keep Japan from victory while being able to really whomp Germany and Italy. Either it turns out to be not enough in the Pacific so Japan gets that last VC while Berlin is still kicking or not enough in Europe so you end up hitting a wall against Germany can just can’t finish them off. In which case Japan wins again.
One thing I have seen happen is when the Axis plays more reactionary and ends up screwing up their own chance at a victory. Like if one side or the other is really getting hurt and maybe close to collapsing, the other side starts sending units over to help them instead of striving for the win on their own board. This doesn’t happen often, but I have seen it. Usually in our games the Axis are very separate from board to board. Oftentimes in our games, Germany and Italy have very little interaction. Italy tends to focus on winning in Africa, particularly Egypt, while Germany concentrates mostly on Russia. Usually, Japan will only help matters by attacking Russia’s eastern territories, thus eliminating an extra 18-20 units from the Moscow defense and taking a few Russian IPCs.
This is why I find it fascinating to read strategies here about Japan floating their fleet around to attack Egypt or the Middle East. Or German bombers flying to the Pacific to attack Allied warships.
Sometimes after Germany takes Moscow, they will keep marching their tanks and mechs eastward to invade China from the rear. This can take a little pressure off of Japan on the mainland if they are trying to fend off an American fleet.
I have successfully done sealion the past 3 games. However, the problem for me has been that Russia is very strong and it’s almost impossible to hold them off. So does anyone have suggestions for stopping Russia?
Yep! Don’t do sea lion and do Barbarossa instead ;)
Sea lion is a losing strategy unless the sea lion is heavily invited by the Allies by making the sealion very cheap or unless Germans get ridicoulous dice. Taking london with 1 armour and a couple of air remaining means that the Germans are doomed.
I would only recommend sealion if you:
Good post, Anonymous X
Hope we see more of you on the boards.
I invite you to check out the league section of the boards - we have a very active league here. You can just play whenever and whatever you want - no minimum game requirement or anything. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thank you Gamerman01.
It would be fun to try a league game. I think I could at least be a decent opponent.
Anyone want to play?
You should go to the league portion of the A&A boards. Check out the stickied threads. There is one there for finding opponents. There is another where you can see the standings. I am a moderator of the league, so if you have any questions you can always ask me. There is a private message function that you can use, too.
We play using Triple A play by forum. Any league player should be able to help you out.
@Anonymous:
I would only recommend sealion if you:
- Do it round 2 or 3
- Have at least 16-18 units surviving AVERAGE
- Dont loose the fleet to US bombers
- Have super odds on a round 3 attack on east poland (so if Soviet actually stack it you can crush it instead of doing sealion, tanks in Germany can both go to London or East Poland)
Well said.
Yep, well said.
A lot of things with only a handfull of words ;).
Only one thing I think is a bridge too far for Germany:
“Don’t loose the fleet to US bombers”. Germany can do this, ofc, but I think this weakens Germany’s defensive strength against Russia too much (in buying more ships). Unless, perhaps, if a TUV of land units in London can be saved (guarateed) by buying a TUV of ships (Carriers) no more than the TUV of the land units being saved. If you get what I’m saying lol.
But then again, the saved units can still not be used defensively during GE4, where land units produced in Berlin can.
The USA can attack with 5STR + 5FTR + 1TAC (probably more if Japan did an early DOW). The usual German fleet of 1CV, 1CA, 1DD (subs don’t count against an air-only attack), 2FTR is not enough defense against this. 2 more CV must be built and the axis air must be on it (being unable to defend/attack in Eastern Europe).
