AARHE: Phase 2: National victory conditions

[Imperious Leader]

Historical:

Russian - Taking over Germany (that is a kiss condition if I ever heard one, atleast for Russia). Yes and Manchuria, balkans, Finland, Mongolia, eastern europe buffer zone

German - Must achieve Lebensraum or take over all Victory Cities in “Western” Russia (Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow), this was it’s main political aim for the war, Afrika was merely the “money maker”. Yes plus you would have to add either UK or German control of UK’s colonies in the middle east and suez

Britain - Free “Free” Countries of Europe, and Capture Germany. Britain if you think about it represents “Free” France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Norway, and maybe a few others I have forgotten to mention. Its goals are to free Western Europe, Balkans, Eastern Europe, Norway, and Capture Germany (Before the Russians ofcourse.) Yes right plus maintain control of her original colonies.

Italy - Re-establishing Roman Rule over the Mediterraenean and Africa (It must control Italy, Balkans, Algeria, Lybia, Egypt-Sudan, Italian East Africa, and Gibraltar.)
Yes exactly.

Japan - Establish Co-East Asian Prosperity Sphere of Influence, Chinese Territories, All Islands, Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, Midway, and India…. exactly correct!.. perhaps add alaska to anchor the northern sphere.

USA - Must insure that western europe and southern europe is not soviet, and all japanese occupied territories are taken and Japan is occupied Dont let more than 2 territories in asia fall to the soviet player.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Russia - There I start to disagree… Historically speaking if the game is still in 1942, The Non Aggression Pact is still in effect and Breaking it will not provide the element of that remaining “Historically” speaking… Possibly achieving certain “Geopolitical” control, maybe it will get more complex…

Germany - My point was that they mainly wanted to mantain a presence in the east politically more then a economic presence in the Mideast…

Britain - That was a general “Condition” I thought that “fate” would express :-D… In fun conditions, I think you might have the same conditions… Maybe additional IPC control…

Italy - Thankyou for your support!

Japan - Great minds think alike! 8-) I didn’t add Alaska merely because it was more of an “afterthought” (compared to other Japanese Campaigns) to divert US combat attention to the north as well as establish a blocking place to prevent a Northern Invasion of Japan, compared to actual Japanese political goals…

USA - Hehe, now Uncle Joe has competition… I like the preventing idea and limited capture (That one might be a little tough), but capturing all Japanese Territories? The goal was to take Japan, not necessarily Island hop, although with the advent of long range bases, it became necessary to take them out. I think it is more of something that occurs in AaA then an actual goal…

GG

[tekkyy]

USSR: I like the establish buffer zone approach

Germany: USSR being than UK on their radar sounds about right…too bad the game modelled UK as 30 IPC and USSR as 24 IPC…

Italy: Mediterraenean…I don’t think Italian East Africa is neccessary though

UK: It think losing some colonies is fine, its more about whether overall position improved I feel

Japan: Alaska is little far stretched for me…if anything Russian far east is a also a north buffer for Japan

US: no comment

(In fact, a radical idea would be that besides the UK/US pair…all powers can declare war on each other.
You then lose your team victory “point”, but can still seek the national victory “point”…game after round X…
Anyway ok I’ll keep this to myself.)

[Gen AlexanderPatch]

Could you guys compile everything, like a list of rules so I can follow?

[tekkyy]

sure I’ll finish that asap
this one is gonna be quite long compared to phase 1

for now read about phase 1 to get an idea
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6743.0

it comes with justifications in italics  :-)

phase 1 covered different aspects to phase 2 mostly, so shouldn’t be too confusing
like “Income” and “Turn Sequence”

[Imperious Leader]

that looks great! good job on the additional embellishments!!! :-D

now the same thing on the rest and we can sit nice and pretty!  I think some of those combat ideas need to be rescripted.

Im working on new player aids for the additional new units so they can be plugged in.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

that looks great! good job on the additional embellishments!!! :-D

Um…we actually had that from weeks ago… :?

Im working on new player aids for the additional new units so they can be plugged in.

That’ll be great.
Try to make it similar to the old one so people feel comfortable and familiar.
Certainly we gotta update the Game and Turn Sequence on the player aid cards.

[Imperious Leader]

It will be the same format… just updated with our rules. Italy will have one too. along with neutrals

[tekkyy]

er…you making player aids for Neutrals too?

[Imperious Leader]

Yep… everything will show who has what forces… it will state the current alliance leanings so players can mark the sheet. Its the kinda player aid where you need a new sheet each turn. each player will have its own tech sheet to also mark.

the rules themselves will have a quick reference guide that allows players to quickly get into the new system.

alot more coming out soon… new italian markers  etc…

the map and a second map with Italy and all the map changes we agree to. That way some players can just “take a quick dip” in our system and latter get immersed into the whole thing.

[Gen AlexanderPatch]

@Imperious:

the map and a second map with Italy and all the map changes we agree to.

What, I never saw the map, can you post it on the web? Thanks

[Imperious Leader]

Its a file i can email it to you. or you can see it on my site if you want to take a look. I do not have any pictures of the alternate map. ill see if i can post something on that as well.

[tekkyy]

back on topic please  :-P
this is one of the slower sections of phase 2

[Adonai]

Russian - In the later days of the war it was somewhat of a race between the allies to see who would reach Germany first. Communist ideology was the opposite, and thus the enemy, of facism. Not only that, but Stalin was an enemy of the capitalists. He would naturally look for ‘victories’ over the americans. Perhaps something could be added where, along with taking Germany, the USSR must do it without taking as many casualties as US/UK?

German - Hitler also used the war to extend his holocaust. Perhaps there is a way to incorporate his goal of creating a master race? Is there a possibility of S.S. units that could be used to eliminate ‘inferior’ beings? I.E. an S.S. unit in a german territory, instead of taking part in a battle, can be used to deport ‘inferiors’. Every deportation gains Germany 1 IPC (working in labour camps) and a S.S. marker is placed in the territory. To acheive a National victory Germany must have placed X S.S. markers in X territories.

Britain - Churchill was likely the most anti-communist man in power at the time. An additional condition could be to prevent the USSR from reaching it’s national victory.

Italy - Wouldn’t the Balkans fall under Germany’s goal of Lebensraum ?

Japan - What about America? Japan’s goal, should Midway have suceeded, was the invasion of hawaii and later the American Homeland.

USA - America wanted the USSR to enter the Pacific War - it was one of their main objectives during the Yalta conference. I’d think that the USSR occupying Japanese territory would be in accordance with their goals, not against. America’s strategy of ‘containing’ the Soviet threat was formed, to my knowledge, in the early stages of the Cold War and not during WW2.

It seems silly to set a single goal for each nation. There were always multiple goals they were working towards. Instead of putting one goal, perhaps multiple goals should be created and NVP (National Victory Points) assigned to each? Players must then concentrate on both team victory and a number of smaller concerns.

[Gen AlexanderPatch]

It seems silly to set a single goal for each nation. There were always multiple goals they were working towards. Instead of putting one goal, perhaps multiple goals should be created and NVP (National Victory Points) assigned to each? Players must then concentrate on both team victory and a number of smaller concerns.

Ok, so I wrote from scratch 3 victory conditions each power:

Soviet Union:
1. Spread communism–2 points for each non-red territory you have at the end of the game, -2 for each red territory you don’t control
2. Be the first at Berlin–8 points for capturing Germany
3. Establish a powerful economy–If you reach a NP of 30, you get 10 points

Germany:
1. Crush the red armies–You get 1 point for each Soviet tank or artillery you destroy, 2 points for aircraft, 3 for warships
2. Blockade Britain–At the end of the game if you control at least 4 sea zones surrounding Britain you get 10 pts
3. Invent “miracle” weapons–For each technology you succesfully research you get 5 points

Great Britain:
1. Be the first at Berlin–8 points for capturing Germany
2. Tame the U-boat menace–3 points for each German submarine sunk
3. Contain communism–For each red territory the Soviet Union doesn’t control at the end of the game, you get 2 points

Japan:
1. Replenish oil resources–If you capture Anglo-Egypt, Trans-Jordan, and Persia you get 3 points each
2. Invade China–If you capture China or Sinkiang you get 2 points each
3. Establish naval superiority–2 points for each US warship sunk

USA:
1. Liberate the Philippines–5 points for capturing the Philippine Islands
2. Be the first at Berlin–8 points for capturing Germany
3. Reestablish naval strentgh–For each ship you build, 3 points

Is this system too complicated? Is it historically inaccurate? Ideas, anyone

[Adonai]

That’s exactly what I was thinking of. Now, when Germany attacks the player will also be looking for concentrations of artillery. It adds an extra consideration to your moves. The points-per and actual criteria may need to be slightly tweaked, but I think it’s a much better system than having a single goal.
Perhaps reaching a certain number of points will grant you bonuses (your citizen’s rejoicing)? One such bonus could be an extra X IPC when you reach X points because your citizen’s are more motivated?

[Guerrilla Guy]

I assume you are talking about when they attack Russia (then it would be Aircraft)?

I like that system too, But considering that the Russians really wanted “cities” I would make it that they earn points for each “City” instead of “Territory” they capture…

GG

[Imperious Leader]

Gen AlexanderPatch: currently your working on NA’s if you want to tackle national victory conditions that would be fine. just get it to a point where you feel it is finished. Your on the right track. You are also a self motivated person.

Adonai: we need to give you something to chew on as well… where do you think you fit in best? Of course you can just discuss anything, but we need to keep on a few topics at a time. Its very difficult to manage 14 different sections of rules. Perhaps you may want to look into techs and extrapolate our ideas on that and fine tune them?

[tekkyy]

I don’t know about the history
but hope we can do it without making it too complex

[Adonai]

I wouldn’t mind working on this system if Alexander Patch has his hands full, but I’ll go whever I’m needed. Sorry for jumping around the topics - there’s just so much to see, and so much to do  :-)