Simplifying units interactions of Transports, Submarines, Destroyers & planes

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks for the answers Barney,
as far as I can see you were curious to explore some features discussed here and there on Subs, planes and destroyers.

About Transports, do you know if there is some way to switch them from no combat value to letting them get Def @1, 1 hit?
Does the taken last is hardcoded into tripleA?

[barney]

You could change transports pretty easily. They’re not hardcoded.

[baron Münchhausen]

Do you mean that you can just add a “1” on defense and it will treated as a regular unit, with no auto-die and no taken last?

And if I prefer that it must be chosen last but still have combat value and a defense factor @1, it is also possible?

[barney]

@ Baron

My last post is incorrect.
There is a ww2v2 ruleset where transports defend at 1 and can be taken as hits whenever.
There is a ww2v3 rule set where the transports can’t defend and are taken last.
These appear to be hardcoded.

I’ll look into it some more.

Here is some more info

Major Differences Between ww2v2 revised and ww2v3 1. In ww2v2 transport units are just like any other unit, and can be used as fodder by being taken casualty first in combat, however in ww2v3 style rules, transports have no defense power and may only be taken casualty after all other non-transport ships are dead.

2. In ww2v2, you can build fighters on carriers if you build both at the same time, and if you build a carrier you can move existing fighters to carriers when you build a carrier in the adjacent sea zone. In ww2v3, you can build new fighters onto existing carriers as well as new carriers, but you may not move existing fighters onto new carriers, as instead you can non-combat move the fighters to where the carrier will be built, then place the carrier under it.

3. In ww2v2, when you strategic bomb or rocket a factory, you immediately reduce the enemy’s PUs. In ww2v3, you do damage to the factory, up to twice the value of the territory. Each point of damage reduces the number of units that can be produced there by 1. The player may repair the damage during their purchase phase.

4. In ww2v2, when you fly over a territory with an AA Gun, the gun gets to fire at each aircraft. In ww2v3, the AA Gun only fires when you attack or bomb the territory it is in.

5. In ww2v2, submarines and transports block the movement of other sea units. In ww2v3, submarines and transports do not block the movement of other sea units, and may be bypassed or attacked.

6. In ww2v2, technology is rolled for, and if you miss nothing happens. In ww2v3, you buy tech tokens, and at the beginning of your turn you roll for each of your tokens. If you roll a 6, you discard all tokens and roll a second time to see which technology you get.

7. In ww2v2, no land units may retreat from an amphibious assault. In ww2v3, the non-amphibious units may retreat.

8. In ww2v2, bombardment immediately kills units, and you are allowed infinite bombardments. In ww2v3, a unit hit by bombard may return fire against the attacking units before dying, and the number of bombards is limited to the number of land units being dropped off from that sea zone.

9. In ww2v2, air units can hit submarines. In ww2v3, an owned destroyer must be present for air units to hit submarines.

10. In ww2v2, submarines may choose to submerge at the end of each round of combat. In ww2v3, they may choose to submerge before each round of combat (and consequently, you can’t kill them without a destroyer).

11. In ww2v2, submarines fire at the beginning of combat, and if there is no enemy destroyer then any casualties are removed immediately. In ww2v3, submarines get their surprise strike both on offense and defense, and both can be nullified by the presence of an enemy destroyer (so in ww2v3, if attacking an enemy sub, the attacker with a sub + destroyer, who’s sub hits, would immediately kill the defending sub with no chance for it to return fire).

So in v2 you could have planes hit subs. Looks like each version does a little bit of both of what you want to do but you can’t merge them.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks Barney,
it seems that the old version is inspired by the Revised rule.
I was more about a way to integrate a transport with 1 hit value into the more recent (and better) rules.

One special thing which may rise an issue is this question that I somehow found in another forum and I made up a specific case to our Topic on Simplifying Transport unit:
@Baron:

What happens if we have a mutual elimination of all Combat units in a SZ with an amphibious assault going on, and Transports from both sides are still in the same SZ?

Attacker: 2 StBs, 2 TPs A0 D0, 1 hit value, but cannot attack
Defender: 1 DD, 3 TPs, A0 D1, 1 hit value each

First round: Attacker scores 1 hit and defender scores two hits.
Assuming that we still play TPs taken last or the defending player choose to keep the transport instead of the DD.

Do the attacking transports live and can do the amphibious assault or must retreat instead?

I hope Der Kuenstler and Toblerone will tell me how they would treat such a naval situation, since both have played with a kind of Classic Transport within G40.2/1942.2 rules?

Would you still let the 2 Transports carry on the amphibious assault, since the 3 defending Transports could have been ignored if there was no combat unit with them?
In this case, the SZ would have 5 Transports in it, at the end of the attacking player turn.

Or do you see it as if the 3 Transports are acting like blockers and so can defend ( 3 Def @1) against the two incoming Transports?

[barney]

You can create a new unit that has transport capabilities that defends on 1. IDK if you could force it to be taken last or not, I think maybe you can. You could always player enforce though.

IDK about the scenario. I guess I wouldn’t allow the trannys to block, but if you were playing with the hybrid rules I guess it would be a standoff ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@barney:

You can create a new unit that has transport capabilities that defends on 1. IDK if you could force it to be taken last or not, I think maybe you can. You could always player enforce though.

IDK about the scenario. I guess I wouldn’t allow the trannys to block, but if you were playing with the hybrid rules I guess it would be a standoff ?

Interesting…
As far as I understand, such TripleA will offer 1 transport at no combat value (as OOB) and 1 Transport with A0 D1, 1 hit acting like any other combat unit (such as Classic Transport), right?

This created transport won’t have the feature such as cannot block amphibious assault, and can be ignored by warships.
Am I right?

The usual solution, that I see is that the defending player will not choose to loose her Destroyer but would discard a Transport (acting like fodder unit, as in Classic time). And since a Destroyer is still present, then attacking transport have to retreat or be destroyed.
The case is over.
It is the obvious choice for the defending player, but I assumed he didn’t know his rolls when he put DD behind casualty line because he thinks his Transport are lucky and can survive.

But played as a Transport with D1 and 1 hit but with Taken Last rule and other feature of the non-combat unit (such as cannot block other enemy’s units), the case is fuzzy.
If the Destroyer wasn’t there, there will be no need to attack the 3 transports. And the amphibious assault would be performed.
But let’s suppose the attacker wants to kill these 3 transports anyway, while making an amphibious assault…

Maybe it is the way to see it.
As long as the invaders don’t face any warships or planes on defender side, the amphibious assault can still go on.
But all transport defending roll which hit must be allocated.

So, if both StBs were shoot down 1 in first and the other in the second round.
(Suppose they were unlucky, and get no hit.)
And on this last combat round, all three transports rolled “1”.
The 2 others hits, must still be allocated to attacking transports.
So, no more amphibious assault.
But, if at least 1 attacking transport would have survived at the end of the final combat round, then the amphibious assault can go forward.

Does it makes sense to you too?

However, it is different treatment if it was Submarines defending the SZ.
So, should we treat such Transport as the OOB rule on Sub?:
@Krieghund:

Romulus is correct.  The key concept is that subs can be ignored during movement.  From the FAQ:

Q.  Let’s say I attack a sea zone that contains both enemy subs and surface warships.  If at some point during the battle, all of the enemy surface warships are sunk and only subs remain, can I ignore the subs and end the battle?
A.  No.  Subs (and/or transports) can only be ignored during movement, and you can only ignore them when there are no surface warships in the sea zone with them.  When you attack a sea zone, you attack all of the enemy units in that sea zone.

So if there are only enemy subs and/or transports blocking your amphibious assault, you can choose to ignore them and they won’t block it.  However, if you choose to attack them (or if there are also surface warships there and you are forced to attack them), you must defeat all of the defending units before your amphibious assault can proceed.

In a nutshell, subs will only fail to block your assault if you never attack them in the first place or if they submerged after you attack them.  Once you attack them, they will block it until they are destroyed or they submerge.

The wording of step 3 in the amphibious assault sequence implies that you can end the sea battle if only defending subs remain.  This is of course incorrect, as subs can only be ignored during movement.  There is a pending erratum to change this wording of to “If there was no sea battle or the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy units except transports and submerged submarines, …”.  I don’t yet know when this will be published.

[barney]

I’d say yes to all

[baron Münchhausen]

So here is the complete roster with the minimal changes to planes, Destroyers, Submarines and Transports:
Infantry A1-2 D2 M1 Cost 3
Get +1A if paired 1:1 with Artillery

Mechanized Infantry A1-2 D2 M2 Cost 4,
Get +1 if paired 1:1 with Artillery
Can Blitz when paired 1:1 with a Tank

Artillery A2 D2 M1 Cost 4
Gives +1A to 1 Infantry or 1 Mechanized Infantry

Anti-Aircraft Artillery A0 D0 NCM1 Cost 5, 1 hit,
up to 3 @1 preemptive against up to 3 planes, whichever the lesser

Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6
Can Blitz or allow MechInf to blitz on 1 on 1 basis.
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.

Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 8
Surprise Strike (except when ASV is present),
Submerge (instead of rolling to hit a target),
No Hostile Sea Zone (except when ASV is present),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.

Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 8
Anti-Sub Vessel on 1 DD:1 Sub basis:
blocks Surprise Strike and No Hostile Sea Zone
but cannot cancel Sub Submerge (which will happen for defending Subs in regular combat phase after the attacker rolls, if a DD block the Sub’s Surprise strike).

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 10
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 11
Gets A4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or a Tank.
Cannot do interception mission on defense, TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 12
Shore bombardment @3

Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 12
SBR/TcBR Attack @1,
SBR/TcBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 14, 1 hit
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 16, 2 hits
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 20, 2 hits
Shore bombardment @4

---

Now, here is a more interesting alternate scale of cost for those which wanted more warships for their bucks, it keeps all the combat ratio between them very close to OOB :
Instead of having a bottom cost of 8 IPCs for Naval units, the base cost is put this time at 7 IPCs.
In addition, Destroyer operate slightly differently: 1 DD block all Surprise Strike, but 1 DD block 1 Sub’s Submerge and for the first round, 1 DD blocks 1 Sub’s Stealth Movement.

Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike (except when at least 1 ASV is present),
Submerge (except when Subs is blocked 1:1 for the first combat round only) :
After the first defense roll @1, it can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round, happening in phase 2 Surprise Strike or Submerge.)
No Hostile Sea Zone (except when ASV is blocking each Submarine on a 1 Sub per 1 DD basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an ASV.

Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel:
blocks all surprise strike, on all Submarines,
cancel on first round only Sub’s Submerge on a 1 DD:1 Sub basis (defense roll@1 in first round, can submerge in phase 2 of the second round),
block on a 1:1 basis Sub’s No Hostile SZ Movement.

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit,
Taken as last casualty or can works as classics: casualty taken at the owner’s choice,

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 9
Gives +1 Attack to 1 Tactical Bomber if paired 1:1 with.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 10
Gets A4 when paired 1:1 to a Fighter unit or a Tank.
Cannot do interception mission on defense, TcBR damage: 1D6.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 10
OffShore bombardment @3

Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 11
SBR/TcBR Attack @1,
SBR/TcBR damage: 1D6+2 on Industrial Complex, Air Base or Naval Base.
Can hit submarines without ASV.

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 12, 1 hit
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 14, 2 hits
carry 2 planes (Fg or TcB)

Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 17, 2 hits
OffShore bombardment @4

---

I really think this scale can be funnier (letting people buying more impressive sculpts than just tiny ground units) while still requiring the same 8 IPCs for transports investment, this make them costlier than the basic fodder unit at 7 IPCs.
This can give choice about the “taken last rule”  to let the player’s hands all the decision on casualty.
The combat values of each units will speak for itself to help the player minimize the effect of losses and maximize the potential combat values it can preserves.
The cost and combat values most of the time will be enough incentive, so the “unit general behaviour” (motives for buying it, offensive or defensive combat function, Non-Combat Move and usual casualties order) works in the way intended for this kind of unit.

[toblerone77]

@Baron:

Thanks Barney,
it seems that the old version is inspired by the Revised rule.
I was more about a way to integrate a transport with 1 hit value into the more recent (and better) rules.

One special thing which may rise an issue is this question that I somehow found in another forum and I made up a specific case to our Topic on Simplifying Transport unit:
@Baron:

What happens if we have a mutual elimination of all Combat units in a SZ with an amphibious assault going on, and Transports from both sides are still in the same SZ?

Attacker: 2 StBs, 2 TPs A0 D0, 1 hit value, but cannot attack
Defender: 1 DD, 3 TPs, A0 D1, 1 hit value each

First round: Attacker scores 1 hit and defender scores two hits.
Assuming that we still play TPs taken last or the defending player choose to keep the transport instead of the DD.

Do the attacking transports live and can do the amphibious assault or must retreat instead?

I hope Der Kuenstler and Toblerone will tell me how they would treat such a naval situation, since both have played with a kind of Classic Transport within G40.2/1942.2 rules?

Would you still let the 2 Transports carry on the amphibious assault, since the 3 defending Transports could have been ignored if there was no combat unit with them?
In this case, the SZ would have 5 Transports in it, at the end of the attacking player turn.

Or do you see it as if the 3 Transports are acting like blockers and so can defend ( 3 Def @1) against the two incoming Transports?

In games where we’ve played with “Classic” transports this battle probably wouldn’t have occurred. For the sake of argument we’ll say it did. The attacker’s transports would be forced to retreat because they cannot attack.

I say the battle wouldn’t happen because if we were playing a game with “classic” transports most players I’ve played with wouldn’t make that assault knowing the transports will have a defense in that instance.

In my FTF games where transports have a defense score HR, no one is buying AP’s for “blockers” and generally when AP’s are bought their almost always in combination with land units in the purchase phase.

As of right now I’m planning to use my 8-8-8 rule with 3-1-2-8 for subs formula that you have recently mentioned Baron.

My last game had one single HR which was just for ease of play because he was pretty much a newbie to anything later than the Hasbro CD rom. That HR was that “All subs are treated as regular naval units”. That was just to speed the game up and it wasn’t all that serious of a game.

Hope that helps.

[baron Münchhausen]

@toblerone77:

@Baron:

Thanks Barney,
it seems that the old version is inspired by the Revised rule.
I was more about a way to integrate a transport with 1 hit value into the more recent (and better) rules.

One special thing which may rise an issue is this question that I somehow found in another forum and I made up a specific case to our Topic on Simplifying Transport unit:
@Baron:

What happens if we have a mutual elimination of all Combat units in a SZ with an amphibious assault going on, and Transports from both sides are still in the same SZ?

Attacker: 2 StBs, 2 TPs A0 D0, 1 hit value, but cannot attack
Defender: 1 DD, 3 TPs, A0 D1, 1 hit value each

First round: Attacker scores 1 hit and defender scores two hits.
Assuming that we still play TPs taken last or the defending player choose to keep the transport instead of the DD.

Do the attacking transports live and can do the amphibious assault or must retreat instead?

I hope Der Kuenstler and Toblerone will tell me how they would treat such a naval situation, since both have played with a kind of Classic Transport within G40.2/1942.2 rules?

Would you still let the 2 Transports carry on the amphibious assault, since the 3 defending Transports could have been ignored if there was no combat unit with them?
In this case, the SZ would have 5 Transports in it, at the end of the attacking player turn.

Or do you see it as if the 3 Transports are acting like blockers and so can defend ( 3 Def @1) against the two incoming Transports?

In games where we’ve played with “Classic” transports this battle probably wouldn’t have occurred. For the sake of argument we’ll say it did. The attacker’s transports would be forced to retreat because they cannot attack.

I say the battle wouldn’t happen because if we were playing a game with “classic” transports most players I’ve played with wouldn’t make that assault knowing the transports will have a defense in that instance.

In my FTF games where transports have a defense score HR, no one is buying AP’s for “blockers” and generally when AP’s are bought their almost always in combination with land units in the purchase phase.

As of right now I’m planning to use my 8-8-8 rule with 3-1-2-8 for subs formula that you have recently mentioned Baron. Hope you get a chance to play test it sooner than later.  :-)

My last game had one single HR which was just for ease of play because he was pretty much a newbie to anything later than the Hasbro CD rom. That HR was that “All subs are treated as regular naval units”. That was just to speed the game up and it wasn’t all that serious of a game.

Hope that helps.

Do you play your HR Transport exactly as Classic TPs?
Are you sure that it is not an hybrid which apply the movement rule of OOB TPs, such as cannot block enemy movement ( the same way as it is for Sub)?

About the case scenario above, I believe that if there is some kind of mutual destruction and Transports are left on both sides, it should be played as it is with OOB Subs.
You decide to fight them, then you must sink them all to perform the amphibious assault,
OR
you decide to ignore them (as the rule allows it : you  need to bring combat units with attacking TPs), so you conduct a direct amphibious assault.

Same treatment for TPs A0 D1 C8, 1 hit. In the above case, it means the 2 attacking TPs must retreat.

Does it seems right to you?

Now we get a simplification of rules on amphibious assault with such hybrid TPs (A0 D1, 1 hit): only 2 ways of playing it.
OOB has 3 ways of doing it :
1- vs Warships, must fight
2- vs Subs only, can fight or ignore them, but need to bring a combat unit (this last point was added in the 2nd edition OOB rules, I believe).
3- vs TPs only, can fight or ignore them, but no need to bring combat unit.

---

Another question  about your 8-8-8 config.
Will you still use the “a sub cannot be hit by planes unless a DD is with them”?
Or do you agree with me that it is no more required with Sub A3 D1 C8?

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is the basic grounds units cost.
Infantry Cost 3
Mechanized Infantry  Cost 4,
Artillery Cost 4
Anti-Aircraft Artillery Cost 5,
Tank A3 D3 M2 Cost 6

Now there is 3 scales ( bottom 8+OOB / bottom 7+ near advanced shipyard / bottom 6 + 3/4 OOB cost) which can works between Naval units but their impact on the board (vs ground units and additional money) need to be tested:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 8
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 8

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 10
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 11
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 12

Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 12
1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 14
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 16
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 20

---

Proportionate to 7/8 of naval and planes OOB:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 7

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 9
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 10
Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 10
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 11

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 12
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 14
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 17

---

Proportionate to 3/4 OOB, the lowest naval is at same cost as Tank:
Submarines A3 D1 M2 Cost 6
Destroyer A2 D2 M2 Cost 6

Transport A0 D1 M2 Cost 8, 1 hit, still taken as last casualty.

Fighter A3 D4 M4 Cost 8
Tactical Bomber A3-4 D3 M4 Cost 9
Cruiser A3 D3 M2 Cost 9
Strategic Bomber A4 D1 M6 Cost 10

1942 Carrier A1 D2 M2 Cost 11
G40 Carrier A0 D2 M2 Cost 12
Battleship A4 D4 M2 Cost 15

I prefer the middle one. The cost are within tech margin and keep each unit on 1 IPCs incremented cost.
The others cost scale have even 3 units at the same cost!
Also 7 is a middle number between OOB cost of Sub at 6 and DD at 8 IPCs.
In addition, TP A0 D1 C8 start at higher level than usual fodder, which make it uninteresting fodder too.
On average you pay  similar prices to get the cheaper units.

[baron Münchhausen]

I play-tested the ideas below:

SUBMARINES A3 D1 M2 Cost 7
Surprise Strike, (blocked when at least 1 Destroyer or Anti-Sub Vessel is present),
Submerge, instead of rolling for a Surprise Strike attack (blocked by ASV on a 1:1 basis for the first combat round only),
Stealth Movement: No Hostile Sea-Zone (except ASV can block Submarine Stealth movement on 1:1 basis),
Cannot hit airplanes,
Can be hit by planes, doesn’t require an Anti-Sub Vessel.
Re: Reality wrecking destroyer rules need a revamp…
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34169.msg1372793#msg1372793

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 7
Anti-Sub Vessel: each ASV blocks Surprise Strike capacity of all enemy’s Submarine units present.
Cancel Sub’s Submerge on 1 DD:1 Sub basis for the first combat round only
(When it occurs, defending Subs rolls a Defense @1 in the first round, and any surviving Subs can submerge at the beginning of the second combat round.)
Cancel Sub’s Stealth Movement on 1 DD: 1 Sub basis for Combat or Non Combat Move, all additional Sub units can perform a Stealth Movement as usual.

TRANSPORT A0 1Def@1 Maximum per TPs group M2 Cost 8, 1 hit
A transports group get a single defense roll @1/round along with defending warships
(for this single defense roll, friendly transports are all considered being part of the same defending player’s group),
and each transport unit can be taken individually as casualty. As long as their is still 1 TP remaining, it can roll this single defense @1.
Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=34290.msg1373212#msg1373212

The Submarines in defensive combat situations always rise the question of taking them as casualties or not (since it has such a low defense @1 and unable to hit planes).
The option of submerging after first round (even when enemy’s Destroyers are present, as allowed according to the HR above, not OOB) is still a tough call.
It clearly leaves all tactical decisions to the player.
That is quite funnier than all Sub rules I tested before (and I tested numerous variations, believe me! :-D):
will you take the Sub unit as fodder or let your Destroyer taking the hit, which gives the opportunity to submerge and fight another day (on offense with a high @3)?

No complex rules with planes vs Subs either.

I can see it work, people. The Submarines is not always taken as fodder instead of a friendly destroyer, letting Destroyer be the main sea fodder. And the main reason is that you don’t want to loose you more offensive efficient Sub units in a desperate combat.
Sometimes, it is a tough call: giving an additionnal combat round to your Battleship, so you can have one last chance to make a hit @4, or simply submerging the Subs (sacrifying your BB) knowing that there is an enemy Battleship which will be without escorting DD and very vulnerable to First Strike Shots when your Subs will be on offensive.

The overall units interation is simpler while the Submarines have a much more offensive role, if you don’t use them as fodder (which are not cheaper than Destroyer, since they are at the same cost.)

You can easily play Defenseless TPs at 7 IPCs and both DDs and Subs at 8 IPCs, if you prefer.
You will still get the same simpler interactions between combat units (Subs, DDs, planes).

I forgot to mention that according to the HR above, owner choose the order of all casualties, including transports.  So all the tactical choices are in his hands.

[baron Münchhausen]

Thanks for the +1.
It is really appreciated.
I hope everyone have a chance to test it, the sub rule especially, in F2F game will give me a report.
Whether good or bad experience, please let me know.
Enjoy,
Baron

[General 6 Stars]

What is the reason why your transport cost stays the same ? I was always a huge fan of lower naval cost. Have you played your 3rd option ( cost 6 ) yet ? Just seeing if it makes 1 country to strong in naval.

I like the sub A3. Like you said do I take as casualty or not. Depends on how much you want to counter. Definitely with wolfpacks.  I think planes should not hit subs unless theirs a destroyer present 1 : 1.

Do Germanys wolfpacks ( if playing rule ) get a A4 with 2 or more subs ?

[baron Münchhausen]

@SS:

What is the reason why your transport cost stays the same ? I was always a huge fan of lower naval cost.

It is too keep the balance between the OOB Defenseless cost and my Transport HRed which have some defensive capabilities but can be chosen at owner’s will instead of chosen last. It worth something in IPCs. (According to Combat AACalc, at OOB level, such TPs should cost 10 IPCs. So, in a way, TPs is also at a reduced cost.)

@SS:

I like the sub A3. Like you said do I take as casualty or not. Depends on how much you want to counter. Definitely with wolfpacks. I think planes should not hit subs unless theirs a destroyer present 1 : 1.

The whole idea is to get ride of this annoying complexifying rules and have better simplified interactions between Fg, Subs, DDs and TPs. If you keep it, then stay OOB.
There is no reason to change Sub combat value. Unless you find them too overpowering.

@SS:

Do Germanys wolfpacks ( if playing rule ) get a A4 with 2 or more subs ?

No. I find that A3 is already enough.
But I gave them more chances of survival with less blocking capacity from DD, especially on submerge.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Narvik:

…or you can google Convoy PQ 17.

Germany would attack the convoy with battleship Tirpitz, lots of Subs, land based Dive-Bombers and Heavy Bombers. UK would defend close with destroyers and frigates, and a fleet of battleships, carriers, cruisers and destroyers.

attached is a pic of the naval battle

I found this not so old historical documentary on PQ17, with some testimonies:
WW2: Convoy PQ17 - Disaster in the Arctic
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bvMCU9nCLzw
Have fun.
Baron

[baron Münchhausen]

My mind evolved on this topic when I add my 2 cents into G40 Redesign thread.
Below are the main post which marks how things on lowering Sub A3 D1 C6 to A2fs D1 C5 and DD C6.
@Baron:

Thanks LHoffman for all the questions and commentaries. I would like to give answers to all but don’t have much time.
I will still adress at least a few for now.

@LHoffman:

Hide your kids, hide your wives, tanks are gonna destroy everything out there. :-D :-D :-D
See my related comment under Tac Bomber below…

@Baron:

SUBMARINES A2 First Strike D1 M2 Cost 6
Cannot hit or be hit by other submarines,

Any reason for no sub vs sub combat?

Yes. I don’t want that Submarine be considered as sea-fodder. Also, it needs a little boost on offense (to keep balance vs Destroyer) because it is the only unit which isn’t at lower cost. Now, Subs directly aim surface vessels only. That emphasized the screening and fodder function of Destroyers. If you invest a lot in Submarines, your own surface fleet will be vulnerable against your opponent’s Subs. That wasn’t the case OOB. Large fleet confrontation showed Submarine’s destruction festival. To bypass Subs in a gamey way OOB, you must forget to bring Destroyers, so aircrafts can directly hit enemy’s surface vessels while Submarines on defense (using first strike @1) can still be used as casualty to screen against attacking Submarines (even with first strike @2).
Hope I’m enough clear so you can see the issue.
In addition, I believe it is historically a rare event that a sub sink a sub. Almost the same kind of oddity as Submarine taking down a Fighter with their AA fire.

@Baron:

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 6

Nice and cheap.
I read that Destroyers (and Destroyer Escort) were built in very large number amongst all navies.

@Baron:

TRANSPORT A0 D1 Last Strike M2 Cost 8, 1 hit

Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.

1. Why so expensive? Most everything else got a cost decrease but transports got increased.

It was a matter of balance compared to the defenseless transports taken last. Using such 1 hit Transport as desperate fodder in needy times can provides a few additionnal hits with larger and costlier warships. That wasn’t the case OOB. So at a matching cost with Fighter at 8 IPCs (OOB worth 10 IPCs), was about the way to statistically get a similar results compared to OOB defenseless transports escorted with Destroyers.

I add this post to provide a link to where my idea on Submarine and Destroyer evolved into.
@Baron:

Cost and units values is a complex matter.
If cost scale is mainly based upon a consistent  OOB ratio amongst units, my previous scale can be increase near OOB too. (Something I just realized.)
Here is 2 comparative scales which can works with my units roster given above.

Unit type   1st scale  Near  OOB scale
Submarine    6             8 IPCs permanent A2 first strike against all surface vessels, including DDs
Destroyer      6             8 IPCs blocks Submerge and Stealth move on a 1:1 basis.
Transport      8             10 IPCS, 1 hit, Last Strike @1, no Taken Last casualty rule
Cruiser          9             12 IPCs with one time AAA capacity
Carrier           12           16 IPCs
Battleship     15           20 IPCs with one time AAA capacity

Fighter           8             10 IPCS
Tactical B.    10            12 IPCS A4D3 with +1 A/D combined arms to Tank
Strategic B.   10           12 IPCs
All aircrafts can hit Submarines without Destroyer presence.

Chosing the appropriate scale is an important issue.
I can only add on this matter that I believe that a lower scale than OOB would accelarate the Allies ticking time bomb because a lot depends on USA warships building pace.

Near OOB cost could be easier to get acceptance.
However, introducing direct hits between planes might produces a lot more losses amongst original set -up units. More  money (from NOs or anything else ) could be needed to keep up with OOB rythm of losses.

@Baron:

@Black_Elk:

I’ll admit to being somewhat torn. On the one hand I think Baron’s unit interactions are excellent and very well thought out, and I also recall the development process over time in countless threads, so I’ve seen how its grown into a pretty complete overhaul. But I also know that people may be reluctant to adopt a series of sweeping changes to the roster. For those who want the familiar OOB combat system just with a different “campaign” dynamic (different NOs, incomes or starting unit distributions) a complete redux of the combat phase might put them off, since it requires you to learn a lot of new things.

I would say that threshold here for me is whether or not the unit interactions can be easily handled in tripleA, without requiring a bunch of new code, or the introduction of new phases and the like.

I’m not a huge fan of combined arms. I know in the OOB game this is a huge part of what makes TacBs useful, but I rather prefer it when each unit has a unique stand alone role, without being reliant on other units to be effective. Artillery set the precedent though, so I suppose its here to stay now, I’d just be careful not to run away with the concept. I think the combat phase becomes a lot less intuitive when the unit attack/defense values change based upon which other units are in the fight. The TacB is rather different than artillery, because it is itself boosted by other units, rather than providing the boost. Artillery has a baseline attack value of 2 that doesn’t change based on which other units are in the fight, which I think is a bit simpler to grasp. I suppose by now everyone is used to the combined arms that currently exist, but adding a bunch of new specialized unit relationships might be off putting to some. Again though, I’m willing to explore at this point. A ground up roster revision is very ambitious.

IDK which direction you will take but I dislike combined arms (except for Art and Inf or MI) too.
Changing the combat value of units during combat is annoying and slowing the pace on A&A boardgame. I know you are looking for simplicity. Hence few revised units, such as Subs, TPs, DDs.
I knew it was bit overstretched.

For Submarines and Destroyers, I cut down the Surprise Strike and blocker because most of the time there is enough DDs to neutralized this special ability. Making both at the same cost would have put a balanced Sub at A3 D1 vs DD at A2 D2. Keeping it at a lower but constant A2 first strike keeps the symbolic surprise attack (figurating the sneaky torpedoes) while putting Subs as a better offensive warship than Destroyer. On the other hand, I simplified the Sub defense value to a regular and constant D1. Anyway, most of the time, it was the usual Sub defense OOB since DD is always present to block Subs escape.

So, when Sub is part of a fight it keeps the same value from the start till the end. Simpler.
Since this Sub is weaker than OOB Sub vs Destroyers, I add Sub cannot hit Sub (for offense while making it a less interesting fodder) and gives it a better survivability with DD blocking Submerge and Stealth only on 1:1 ratio which make sense at the same cost.
At least, when a Submarine will be on offense, the A2 first strike promise to be more satisfying than OOB.

On TcB and StB, making them the same cost with same attack value A4 is going to put players on a difficult dilemma: better range and mobility or better overall unit in defense. Buying TcBs A4 D3 M4 instead of StBs A4 D1 M6 will reduced the effectiveness of Dark Sky which rely a lot on higher mobility.

@Baron:

@The:

Since Sub always have First Strike I thought only undetected subs have the first strike option (@2 in attack & @1 while defending) while detected subs fire along with all other vessels. At least this is the way we handle this in our games

OOB, you are right Sub cost 6, A2 D1 and gets Surprise Strike if no DD is present.

In my redesign Sub suggestion, DD cost 6 and block 1:1 Sub’s Submerge and Stealth Move, but can’t affect the Sub’s Surprise Strike (at 5 IPCs vs 6 IPCs, A2 first strike vs D2, the IPC ratio already put DD at the same OOB AACalc odds of 6 IPCs vs 8 IPCs, A2 vs D2)

OOB odds: 88% vs 11%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=8&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=6&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

Redesign odds: 88% vs 12%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=6&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=5&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

Simpler to let Sub, cost 5, attack A2 First strike all the time, but defend @1 regular.
Anyway, you would need Destroyer as fodder and to attack Sub, because they can Submerge, if their is no DD.

@Baron:

Unit type
Cost  Combat values
Special abilities

SUBMARINE
5 IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move

DESTROYER
6 IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.

TRANSPORT
8 IPCs A0 D0 M2, 1 hit,
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft. Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.

Undecided: Submarine’s Stealth Move and No Control of Sea Zone still afford 1 single shot @1 per Submarine unit against any warships or transports passing by in the same SZ.

This is one possible result once added into lower cost structure.
@Baron:

This is the reduced cost structure with near OOB cost for planes and Carrier holding 2 planes (Fgs or TcBs).
I also stick to this cost structure (5-6-9-12-15).
I put the 1 hit Transport at 8 IPCs.
I write here many ideas which still fit into core roster at this low cost.
All other ground units are as OOB, except for Tank which no longer gives attack bonus to TacB.

Feel free to quote, erase the quotation and my name, then change the units according to your idea.
This can be a tool to provide a full view of everyone roster.

Unit type  
Cost   Combat values
Special abilities

SUBMARINE
5  IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move
On offense, Sub’s commander can allocate each hit whether on transports group or warships group, the owner still choose which individual unit is the casualty.

On defense, Stealth Move allows (but not compel to) each Sub 1 single roll@1 against any ships passing through the Sub’s SZ. Only each Destroyer can get a single retaliate roll @2.

DESTROYER
6  IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.

TRANSPORT
8  IPCs A0 regAA1 D0 M2, 1 hit, taken as casualty according to owner’s choice.
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft. Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.
Can unload in a Sub infested SZ if escorted by surface warships.

If you bring them in with attackers - as you would for amphibious - then any defense shots in excess of what is needed to sink the accompany ships MUST be applied to any transports until all shots are accounted for or there are no units left to assign them to. (Per OOB rule.)

CRUISER
9 IPCs  A3 D3 M3
Shore Bombard 3
Gives +1 move to 1 surface vessel, paired 1:1

FLEET CARRIER
12  IPCs A0 D2 M2, 2 hits,
Carry 2 planes,
damaged Carrier still carry one aircraft.

BATTLESHIP
15  IPCs A4 D4 M2, 2 hits,
Shore Bombard 4

Both repair at purchase and repair phase in a SZ adjacent to a Naval Base SZ, or in NB SZ.
Naval Base cannot repair more than 3 warships hits per turn.

FIGHTER
10 IPCs A3 D4 M4
SBR: A2 D2, interceptors always destroy bombers first.

TACTICAL BOMBER
12 IPCs A4 D3 M4
TBR: A1first strike,  Damage D6 on AB or NB,
SBR: can do escort mission for StBs without bombing AB or NB.

STRATEGIC BOMBER
12 IPCs  A4 D1 M6
SBR:  AA A1first strike up to two Fighters, whichever the lesser,
Damage on IC, AB, NB D6+2 /minimum damage 2 pts if hit by IC’s/AB or NB’s AA gun.
No damage when destroyed by intercepting Fighters.

All aircrafts can hit unsubmerged Submarines without Destroyer presence.

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY
4 IPCs A0 D1 AAx2* M1 CM or NCM, 1 hit,
Taken as last casualty on offence.
*Fire each round @1 first strike against up to two aircrafts, which ever the lesser.
Regular defense @1 if there is no enemy’s plane.