Axis and Allies Revised Varient ( historical edition) Phase one proposal (draft)

[Imperious Leader]

OK i feel that these represent too many variations and different ideas. Their should be ONE system to represent all these numbers and the MODIFICATIONS should come from that.

AA guns:

Roll one d6, if you get a 6, then roll another d6 if you get a 1-2 plane destroyed. if you score a 3-4 the plane does not complete mission and must return to base ( payload not dropped). The AA gun rolls one time for every three planes, so 5 planes it rolls just once.
AA guns do not roll in non-combat phase. AA guns are automatically rolled anytime you enter (fly over enemy territory).

Modifications:
Heavy bombers +1
Radar-1
Jet fighters +2

This is the kind of thing needed… one rule covering all the possibilities with a short list of modifications

[theduke]

+++++++ OK I feel  many of these ideas are basically NA’s and should be selected as part of a larger menu of “goodies” to give the project historical credentials. I see what your doing with this, but to give just one choice for each player isnt enough to stimulate strategy and cover all the historical and realistic situations of the war. The Soviets enjoyed an ability to “whip up” countless divisions of infantry, armor, and planes after suffering huge loses were fairly easy to replace them. Each other nation has its own story and its up to us to lay all the facts down in some nifty NA’s.

If we have a huge list (of like 6 or so) NAs, then it will be almost impossible for them to all be of approx. equal value. It took long enough to even get these 6 national units (or NAs as we can call them) to be of approx. equal value. Getting 36 approx. equal NAs can’t do done. Maybe it could be done if we break the NAs up into 6 categories, with each category having equal valued NAs… 1 category being these “national units”. The thing I hate about the OOB NAs is that some NAs are incredibly good and others are worthless. If we accept that also, then all our efforts to make this game balanced will be torn to shreds whenever players decide to use the NAs with our rules.

[theduke]

I think that the rules for radar, h. bombers and jets are too complicated right now, but as they are worked on more they will eventually be simplified down during editing.

How about this?

Radar= Every AA gun unit can detect an enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less (again max of 3 are functional in any 1 territory). Also, every AA gun (again, max of 3 per territory) may detect enemy air units flying over the territory on a roll of 4 or less.

Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the highest number that they would otherwise detect them at (i.e. they detect your bombers on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, take the larger of 2 rolls to determine damage during SBRs.

Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2. Your fighters are detected by enemy AA gun units at half the highest number they would otherwise be detected at (i.e. they detect your fighters on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, your fighters defend at a 5.

[Imperious Leader]

OK another idea: AS you stated ALL the natiions will be able to pick from a master list of NA’s BUT they will essentially be made so as to have a point value to them… so you will get so many points say like 20 points some NA’s cost 2 points and others are 10 points. the Axis will have a list and the allies will have another list. IN both cases this list is the sum of historical ideas of what was possible and we can make many of them similiar.

example: both sides can have some deal on “cheaper armor” where 2 tanks cost 8 bucks, however the allies pay say 3 points for this and the axis have to pay 5, while another “chit” of say "volkstrum- roll one d6= number of infantry costing 2 IPC can be built that turn…this would cost the axis say 3, while the allies would have a similiar rule but costing 5… something like this…

[theduke]

Let’s look at the odds with the new modifications. This may seem complicated, but remember, it’s not like all these possible combinations have to be done… just 1 of them. It will become 2 nd nature as people get accustomed to it.

Assume 1 AA gun, 1 bomber doing SBR:

No techs:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.
=1/18 chance of being shot down

Defender has jets:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/9 chance of being shot down

Attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1. (due to h. bombers)
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.
=1/36 chance of being shot down

Defender has radar:
AA gun rolls to target on a 4 or less. (due to radar)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1.
=1/9 chance of being shot down (same as for jets, but with different numbers)

Defender has jets, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1. (due to h. bombers)
If successful, roll to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=1/18 chance of being shot down (back to normal odds with no tech; techs cancel)

Defender has jets and radar:
AA gun rolls to target on a 4 or less. (due to radar)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1 or 2. (due to jets)
=2/9 chance of being shot down

Defender has radar, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 2 or less. (it would be 4 or less with radar, but cut in half due to heavy bombers)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1.
=1/18 chance of being shot down (back to normal odds with no tech; techs cancel)

Defender has radar and jets, attacker has heavy bombers:
AA gun rolls to target on a 2 or less. (it would be 4 or less with radar, but cut in half due to heavy bombers)
AA gun rolls to hit on a 1 or 2.
=1/9 chance of being shot down

I think this is better and simpler. Opinions?

[theduke]

Another change:

Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6. All your bombers move 8 in the non-combat move phase of a certain turn if they do not move in the combat move phase of that turn. Also, whenever any of your bombers are shot down, instead of losing the bomber you surrender 10 IPCs to the bank and the bomber loses the ability of bombing the opponent (The bomber then returns to a friendly territory as usual).

Reasoning: No unit should be able to move 8 spaces (go halfway around the world) and participate in combat while doing so. Long-range escorts helped bombers a lot in SBRs, so I think a better advantage for bombers is instead of moving 8, for them to have better escort cover. A simple way to portray this in the game is instead of you losing a bomber when being shot down, you lose the equivalent of a escort (or fighter) unit, namely 10 IPCs.

Opinions?

[theduke]

I think all these techs are worth about the same… 5 IPCs a turn. IMO the OOB techs are uneven in worth. Granted, techs like Super Subs go up in value the more subs you have, but the old techs are still very uneven besides. Hopefully these will be better.

1. Radar= Every AA gun unit can be used to detect 1 enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less (remember, only a max of 3 AA gun units are functional in any 1 territory) but cannot be used to hit the sub. Also, every AA gun (again, max of 3 per territory) may detect enemy air units flying over the territory on a roll of 4 or less.

2. Rockets= You may purchase rockets at a cost of 2 IPCs each. Any number of rockets may be fired from any number of your territories, provided that every territory a rocket is fired from is contiguously connected to your capital. Once a rocket is fired from a territory, it has a range to 2 to reach an enemy IC. The amount of damage done to the IC is equal to the larger of 2 dice rolls. Always roll for each rocket individually (i.e always roll only 2 dice at a time). You may rocket attack any number of enemy ICs, but the max damage done to any IC is equal to the territory’s IPC value.

3. Super Subs= All your subs attack/ defend and interdict enemy commerce at a roll of 3 or less.

4. Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6. All your bombers that don’t move in the combat move phase get to move 8 in the non-combat move phase of that same turn. Whenever any of your bombers get shot down you have a choice of either (a) paying 10 IPCs and losing the ability of bombing the enemy in that same turn or (b) assigning the bomber as a casualty as usual.

5. Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2. Your fighters are detected by enemy AA gun units at half the  number they would otherwise detect them (i.e. they detect your fighters only on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, your fighters defend at a 5.

6. Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the number that they would otherwise detect them (i.e. they detect your bombers only on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, take the larger of 2 rolls to determine damage during tactical and strategic bombing.

Rules regarding techs:

Each tech roll still costs 5 IPCs. No nation may spend more than half their IPCs in the Technology Development phase of that turn.

The tech/s you are rolling to develop are declared before you roll. If you roll the same number as the number associated with the tech (see above) then you successfully developed the tech. If you roll the number that equals 7 minus that associated number, then you achieved a technology breakthrough. A technology breakthrough makes it much easier to develop that specific tech later in the game. For every technology breakthrough you achieve in a certain tech category, you get 1 additional free die roll in every turn that you buy at least 1 tech roll for that same tech. For example if you achieved 2 breakthroughs in Super Subs (i.e. you previously you rolled a 4 two separate times while attempting to get Super Subs) but still have not developed Super Subs, then on the next turn that you buy a tech roll for Super Subs you get to roll a total of 3 dice to achieve that tech (1 for the purchased roll + 2 free die rolls for the 2 breakthroughs). Breakthroughs may only be used in the same tech category that you achieved them in.

Note to Imp and others: this breakthrough idea will work well with your goal of having powerful techs and weak techs. You can just make the slight change that rolling the same number be worth 2 breakthroughs (instead of actually getting the tech) and rolling the number that equals 7-that number be worth 1 breakthrough and say that you only achieve the tech in a certain number of breakthroughs (like 2 or 3 for a weak tech and 5 for a powerful tech). This idea can also be used to try to stop teams from being able to achieve techs too early.

[theduke]

The idea of the rule that no nation may spend more than half their IPCs on techs is to take away the unrealistic part of the game of a nation rushing to get a tech by spending their entire economy on techs. This can’t realistically happen due to limitations on labs, scientists, materials, etc… At the start of the game, this means Russia is limited to 2 tech rolls per turn (not like they should use this ability), UK and Japan limited to 3 tech rolls per turn, and US and Germany limited to 4 tech rolls per turn.

The idea of breakthroughs is to better simulate actual tech development. Tech development shouldn’t be an all or nothing persuit. It involves a stepwise process.

[Imperious Leader]

OK this is much better… good!  Now can you restate your aa gun rule in a manner thats streamlined?  BTW dom you think we need more techs than you listed?

[tekkyy]

@theduke:

1. Radar= Every AA gun unit can be used to detect 1 enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less

Submarines are detected by sonar not radar? Coastal defense is not about sub I think.

4. Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6….Whenever any of your bombers get shot down you have a choice of either (a) paying 10 IPCs and losing the ability of bombing the enemy in that same turn

This built-in esort fighters model is great. But I think all bombers should have it. Or “long-range aircraft” tech needs a change of name. 10 IPC is the cost of a whole fighter piece, maybe it should be 5 IPCs?

5. Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2.

I think only if you have fighters in that territory.

6. Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the number that they would otherwise detect them

I don’t understand why heavy bombers are harder to detect!

Each tech roll still costs 5 IPCs. No nation may spend more than half their IPCs in the Technology Development phase of that turn.

Good call.

@theduke:

Reasoning: No unit should be able to move 8 spaces (go halfway around the world) and participate in combat while doing so.

Sounds good.

@Imperious:

The AA gun rolls one time for every three planes, so 5 planes it rolls just once.

Why “every three planes”? I was thinking more like “up to three planes” because AA has limited time to fire before the enemy planes go out of sight. Remember how I said “every three planes” model has the proportional aspect which is not accurate?
And its great we let up to3 AA fire.

@theduke:

No techs:
AA gun rolls to target on a 1 or 2.
If successful, roll to hit on a 1.

Whats this target/detect thing?
Does it apply to SBR only?
What happens when we have SBR AND land combat?

[tekkyy]

@theduke:

I’ve made some changes. Opinions?

Russia’s “buy 2 armor units for 8 IPCs” is fine I think.
Germany’s “pays 6 IPCs for each sub” is fine I think.
UK’s “pays 10 IPCs for each destroyer” is fine I think.

player automatically collects 4 IPCs before the battle takes place and adds it to the rest of his IPCs.

What are you trying to model? Kamikaze fighters can be stripped down before setting off? 4 IPC is a lot too.

but they only have half the number of moves as a regular Japanese fighter

I don’t understand why you reducing the range of kamikaze.

US only pays 13 IPCs for each CV and every CV can move 3 per turn.

That would be the rapid building of light carriers made from cruiser hull? Then it should be cheaper but only take 1 hit. And it shouldn’t move faster. Maybe put a US marker underit to denote.

[theduke]

Thanks for all your comments. I didn’t go into detail as to why I think those rules I made up were more realistic. When we make the official writeup we’ll need to go into why the rules we made are more realistic (just like how the OOB rules justify their NAs with a little blurb just before introducing the NA).

I’ll try to answer all your questions:

player automatically collects 4 IPCs before the battle takes place and adds it to the rest of his IPCs.
What are you trying to model? Kamikaze fighters can be stripped down before setting off? 4 IPC is a lot too.

Purpose-built kamikazes planes had only the bare necessities. Very cheap… they didn’t even have landing gear (1 way trip only)! The 4 IPCs is to simulate the cheaper costs. The reason why you get the money when you declare the kamikaze is because not all planes were Kamikazes and we don’t want new units in phase 1. It is the simply the easiest way to distinguish the 2 types of Japanese planes without having 2 actually different units.

but they only have half the number of moves as a regular Japanese fighter
I don’t understand why you reducing the range of kamikaze.

Kamikazes were not used in the middle of the Pacific. They were used as a last resort to protect the home islands. It’s not realistic to allow kamikazes a large range to be able to leave Japan and take out US ships in Hawaii. I’m thinking about not even allowing LRA to apply to kamikazes even if Japan acquires that tech. Kamikaze planes were too cheap to utilize that tech.

US only pays 13 IPCs for each CV and every CV can move 3 per turn.
That would be the rapid building of light carriers made from cruiser hull? Then it should be cheaper but only take 1 hit. And it shouldn’t move faster. Maybe put a US marker underit to denote.

Yes, and CVs will still be 1 hit units in phase 1. Cruiser were faster ships so I think CVs should be able to move 3. Why do we need to denote CVs with US markers? All CVs should be represented the same.

1. Radar= Every AA gun unit can be used to detect 1 enemy sub in an adjacent SZ on a roll of 4 or less
   Submarines are detected by sonar not radar? Coastal defense is not about sub I think.

Radar played a very critical role in the detection of subs. Sonar detects submerged subs, radar detects surfaced subs (Sonar doesn’t work well on surfaced subs). Before advances in radar, subs attacked fairly easily by moving in close to the surface to avoid sonar and depth charges, etc… Radar and LRA were a couple of the most profound advances in ASW and completely turned around the 2nd Battle of the Atlantic to the Allies favor (yes, the Axis were actually winning on that front before these advances even though you couldn’t have guessed it from how it’s represented in the OOB rules!  :wink:)

As for AA gun unit being affected by radar, I’m thinking of the AA gun unit as a ‘Military Defensive Unit’ or something like that (I’m still working on ideas for names- help please?). It will iincorporatestructures like radar towers, and ccoastalfortifications as well as city defenses like interceptors and rtl like flak and coast rtl. In later phases we can have many units represent these if we choose, but I’d like no new units for phase 1.

[theduke]

4. Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6….Whenever any of your bombers get shot down you have a choice of either (a) paying 10 IPCs and losing the ability of bombing the enemy in that same turn
   This built-in escort fighters model is great. But I think all bombers should have it. Or “long-range aircraft” tech needs a change of name. 10 IPC is the cost of a whole fighter piece, maybe it should be 5 IPCs?

Quote
5) Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2.
I think only if you have fighters in that territory.

Quote
6) Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the number that they would otherwise detect them
I don’t understand why heavy bombers are harder to detect!

I like the simplicity of hitting a bomber kills a bomber unit. I like the idea of simulating improved escort cover with LRA. My vote is to keep it is as but as always I’m open to any new ideas. If the enemy AA gun hits a bomber with LRA, it should at least be registered as a full hit on a fighter escort unit (=10 IPCs). Not half an escort unit. Where are you getting 5 IPCs from?

Interceptors are not fighter units IMO. I don’t like the idea of a player needing to use most of his fighters as escorts/interceptors. It starts to dull the game IMO. Since interceptors are represented by AA gun unit, the jet interceptors should also be represented by that unit, not fighter units. Fighter units get the 5 defense bonus for jet power. I’m open to any new ideas.

Heavy bombers can fly at a much higher altitude then medium bombers. Hence, harder to target.

Whats this target/detect thing?
Does it apply to SBR only?
What happens when we have SBR AND land combat?

Weren’t you there when I came up with that? It’s in 1 of the posts in one of the old threads. All air units and subs need to be first detected or targeted before they can be hit. It makes subs worth the money so they aren’t instantly hit in the 1st turn. Now they are hit much less often. Try looking in the old ‘historical edition’ topic for more info (the one with 7 pages). I haven’t decided if this apples to all actual combat with planes, or just for flying over enemy territory. I don’t think it should apply to regular combat, but it’s still on the drawing board.

[theduke]

OK this is much better… good!  Now can you restate your aa gun rule in a manner thats streamlined?  BTW dom you think we need more techs than you listed?

New idea! I just changed the AA gun unit so it’s not used to detect subs anymore. I think this new idea is simpler and will be better accepted by players (it’s less abstract). Now radar just causes all units detecting subs to detect on a 4 or less instead of a 2 or less. AA guns are still not used at all in detecting subs, but they are used in targeting air units. Make sense?

I need ideas what to call this AA gun unit so that it incorporates all coastal defenses and SBR defenses (both interceptors and flak). Coastal and Aerial Defensive Unit?

I like only 6 techs for phase 1. Keep it simple that way and it works well with the whole ‘7 minus target number equals breakthrough number’. With any other number of techs, it wouldn’t work. We can and will have many more techs in one of the latter phases.

AA gun unit rules:
Against air units:
No more than 3 AA guns may fire in any 1 territory. Anytime an enemy air unit flies over a territory, either in combat or non-combat move phases, the AA guns may fire against those air units. Each AA gun (up to 3) rolls 1 die to target an air unit. For every roll of a 1 or 2 an air unit has been targeted. For every successful target roll roll another die to determine the number of air units shot down. An air unit is shot down on a roll of a 1.

Against amphibious assaults:
No more than 3 AA gun units may fire during an amphibious assault. Roll 1 die for every AA gun (up to 3) to target 1 unloading transport. The transport has been successfully targeted on a roll of a 1 or 2. For every roll of a 1 or 2, roll another die to attempt to hit the transport. The enemy transport is hit on a roll of a 1. Repeat again for all other unloading transports.

[theduke]

1. Radar= Every surface naval unit and fighter unit now detects enemy subs on a roll of 4 or less instead of just a 2 or less. Also, every AA gun (max of 3 may fire per territory) may detect enemy air units flying over the territory on a roll of 4 or less.

2. Rockets= You may purchase rockets at a cost of 2 IPCs each. Any number of rockets may be fired from any number of your territories, provided that every territory a rocket is fired from is contiguously connected to your capital. Once a rocket is fired from a territory, it has a range to 2 to reach an enemy IC. The amount of damage done to the IC is equal to the larger of 2 dice rolls. Always roll for each rocket individually (i.e always roll only 2 dice at a time). You may rocket attack any number of enemy ICs, but the max damage done to any IC is equal to the territory’s IPC value.

3. Super Subs= All your subs attack/ defend and interdict enemy commerce at a roll of 3 or less. Also, subs may move 3 in the non-combat move phase (Note that subs still can’t move in both the combat and non-combat move phases in the same turn).

4. Long-range aircraft= All your fighters move 6. All your bombers that don’t move in the combat move phase get to move 8 in the non-combat move phase of that same turn. Whenever any of your bombers get shot down you have a choice of either (a) paying 10 IPCs and losing the ability of bombing the enemy in that same turn or (b) assigning the bomber as a casualty as usual.

5. Jet Fighters= Your AA gun units hit enemy air units on a 1 or 2. Your fighters are detected by enemy AA gun units at half the  number they would otherwise detect them (i.e. they detect your fighters only on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, your fighters defend at a 5.

6. Heavy Bombers= Enemy AA gun units detect your bombers at half the number that they would otherwise detect them (i.e. they detect your bombers only on a 1 without radar and on a 1 or 2 with radar). Also, take the larger of 2 rolls to determine damage during tactical and strategic bombing.

Rules regarding techs:

Each tech roll still costs 5 IPCs. No nation may spend more than half their IPCs in the Technology Development phase of that turn.

The tech/s you are rolling to develop are declared before you roll. If you roll the same number as the ‘target number’ associated with the tech (see above) then you develop the tech. If you roll the number that equals 7 minus the target number, then you achieved a technology breakthrough. A technology breakthrough makes it much easier to develop that specific tech later in the game. For every technology breakthrough you achieve in a certain tech category, you get 1 additional free die roll in every turn that you buy at least 1 tech roll for that same tech. For example if you achieved 2 breakthroughs in Super Subs (i.e. you previously you rolled a 4 two separate times while attempting to get Super Subs) but still have not developed Super Subs, then on the next turn that you buy a tech roll for Super Subs you get to roll a total of 3 dice to develop that tech (1 for the purchased roll + 2 free die rolls for the 2 breakthroughs). Breakthroughs may only be used in the same tech category that you obtained them in.

[theduke]

Notice that I posted some changes to the techs. Radar doesn’t affect AA guns with ASW, but instead it affects all combat units attacking the subs. Also, IMO Super Subs need to be better so now they also move 3 in the non-combat move phase only.

FYI, I’m working on some new escort and interceptor rules that I think you’ll like much, much better! Still in the works though.

[Imperious Leader]

ok still studying this stuff…

[theduke]

I think we should also introduce the 2 following minor changes:

US national unit advantage should allow CVs to only move 3 in the non-combat move phase only.

Destroyers (which also represent cruisers and frigates in phase 1) also move 3 in non-combat move phase only.

This connection between the moves of the 2 types of units brings together the idea of US CVs being built on cruiser hulls for speed.

[Imperious Leader]

Why do these ships “slow down” during combat? They move farther and that should count during either phase. How do you feel that this would be some large advantage? BTW in phase two comes the extra units like the cruiser so im not sure we really need destroyers moving 3 spaces because they were slower anyway and now we got the cruiser. If the DD is going 3 spaces, then the BB is totally useless. so we have to keep some units at 2 and others at 3. BB and DD at 2 with CA and CV at 3.

[theduke]

Why do these ships “slow down” during combat?

I figure combat takes up a lot of time and fuel that has a significant effect on range. If a naval unit has to search around and hunt for the enemy that’s going to take a considerable amount of time and fuel because they won’t be travelling in a straight line. Non-combat movement has a very differnet goal. It is to get to it’s destination as quickly as possible. That is my reasoning. Do you think it’s sound?

In phase 1 no other unit incorporates cruisers, so I think DDs should incorporate them. Some of these rules will probaby have to be changed around anyway so I don’t think it’s a big problem giving DDs an ability of moving 3 in phase 1 and then taking it away when we introduce the separate cruiser unit. If you feel strongly about it we don’t have to have DD units move 3 in non-combat. Opinions?

I still feel that CVs should only move 3 in non-combat to discourage them from being used as fodder in a combat 3 spaces away. The carrier will still be able to join the rest of the naval force 3 spaces away, just not make it in time for combat. I think it will work out well. Opinions?