Question about Tech.

[knp7765]

@ItIsILeClerc:

@knp7765:

(…) if you are wanting heavy bombers, it can end up costing you a lot of money if you don’t get a lucky roll. Not only do you count the money paid just to roll for tech, as well as any rounds you buy dice and don’t get a breakthrough, but if you do get a breakthrough and end up getting some other tech so you have to try again next round, really you have to count the money paid getting the other tech as well.
Round 1 = buy 4 dice, roll no 6s, cost $20.
Round 2 = buy 5 dice, roll a 6, get Super Subs, cost = $25
Round 3 = buy 5 dice, roll a 6, get Heavy Bombers, cost = $25
Total cost to get Heavy Bombers = $70

See what I mean?

And he who is getting Heavy Bombers for $70,- is still a Lucky *******!
I think $100 is a reasonable average for getting 2 random techs + the 1 specific tech that you ‘must have’ (Heavy Bombers in this case). Now, for that money you could have bought 8 bombers or 10FTR instead…

Yeah, I agree with you. Odds are, you probably end up getting 2 or 3 other techs before the one you actually want. And the tech you want will probably cost much more than the $70 in my example. I was just using that as a quick example.

[Captain-Mitchell 0]

@ItIsILeClerc:

@knp7765:

(…) if you are wanting heavy bombers, it can end up costing you a lot of money if you don’t get a lucky roll. Not only do you count the money paid just to roll for tech, as well as any rounds you buy dice and don’t get a breakthrough, but if you do get a breakthrough and end up getting some other tech so you have to try again next round, really you have to count the money paid getting the other tech as well.
Round 1 = buy 4 dice, roll no 6s, cost $20.
Round 2 = buy 5 dice, roll a 6, get Super Subs, cost = $25
Round 3 = buy 5 dice, roll a 6, get Heavy Bombers, cost = $25
Total cost to get Heavy Bombers = $70

See what I mean?

And he who is getting Heavy Bombers for $70,- is still a Lucky *******!
I think $100 is a reasonable average for getting 2 random techs + the 1 specific tech that you ‘must have’ (Heavy Bombers in this case). Now, for that money you could have bought 8 bombers or 10FTR instead…

That’ why I do not choose “Remove all Tech. token in the end”.In the classic rule,Tech. development is so meaningless,you can build a huge army with IPCs that  for Tech. development,but the effect of Tech. usually not as good as a strong troop.

[cyanight]

I almost always roll on tech for Germany on the turn I plan to attack Moscow to increase the amount of units surviving the battle. I usually roll (1-2) dice and roll on the Land chart so I can try to get Adv Mech or Adv Artillery. Both of those are going to increase your odds much better than Heavy Bombers.  All those mech paired with tanks get an increase in power or twice the mech you have paired with an artillery. That’s a huge swing in power compared to the bonus you get for Heavy Bombers.

On a side note I performed a Sealion with Germany last night.  Rolled 1 dice on tech before the battle and got Jet power.  This time I rolled on the Air chart because I had no mech and only one artillery in the battle.  It definitely helped me take London with less losses. I could have rolled on the Land and hoped for Paratroopers. I could have sent 4 more inf over to take as AA casualties.

[Whitshadw]

You got very lucky sir!

I honestly even as America i typcaly roll 1-2 Die per turn

Its not the end all be all… and if i get lucky and get a soild hit then who knows it could really swing the tide in my favor… or make me spend less in the Pacific and still keep Japan at bay…

Nothing like getting Super Subs or Improved Harbor in the Pacific.

Ive never done tech rolls for Germany or anyone else…. I feel like its to much of a race agenst time and time is your enemy and every IPC counts…

Ive never played A&A on the Computer so i dunno how much diffrent it is… ive only played table top

[ItIsILeClerc]

@Captain-Mitchell:

(…) In the classic rule,Tech. development is so meaningless,you can build a huge army with IPCs that   for Tech. development,but the effect of Tech. usually not as good as a strong troop.

Exactly what I was thinking.

@cyanight:

I almost always roll on tech for Germany on the turn I plan to attack Moscow to increase the amount of units surviving the battle. I usually roll (1-2) dice and roll on the Land chart so I can try to get Adv Mech or Adv Artillery. Both of those are going to increase your odds much better than Heavy Bombers.  All those mech paired with tanks get an increase in power or twice the mech you have paired with an artillery. That’s a huge swing in power compared to the bonus you get for Heavy Bombers. Â

On a side note I performed a Sealion with Germany last night.  Rolled 1 dice on tech before the battle and got Jet power.  This time I rolled on the Air chart because I had no mech and only one artillery in the battle.  It definitely helped me take London with less losses. I could have rolled on the Land and hoped for Paratroopers. I could have sent 4 more inf over to take as AA casualties.

I like this way of thinking!
Personally I never research because I think to myself that all the money required to get to a useful tech can be more effective to you when used to build more units…
…But if used the way you do, it could mean the deathblow to your opponent! Of course, if you don’t get lucky on the techroll, you are screwed big time for falling behind in number of units but I like the ‘all or nothing at all’ approach if the game can otherwise be expected to end in a loss. GE7, Germany should be able to tell if the Axis cause is most likely doomed and pressing the ‘all or nothing’ button might save your German *** for a change :-).

I just calculated the German increase in Power if it hits ‘Advanced Artillery’ GE7 (and ‘Advanced Mech’ does about the same). It could turn a close call at the gates of Moscow into a win for Germany, but it’s not as spectacular as expected. In the example I used in my BC (usual German power against usual Russian power), Moscow went down from winning the battle with 21 survivors to winning it with ‘just’ 13…
I’d say use the gambit if the power increase means absolute victory for you instead of a loss, but otherwise I fear Tech will remain far less cost effective than buying units. Which is sad. I usually love to tech up in strategy games ;-).

[cyanight]

Yes it does matter if the odds are NOT in your favor already.  I don’t roll on tech unless I first establish that I can take Moscow with a percentage chance of 90% or greater.  I roll on tech to see if I can boost my units.  I got Paratroopers one time and it helped me save my Luftwaffe from AA fire because you can select each paratrooper for an AA casualty and save your planes.

Although I tend to get lucky rolling tech I also get unlucky bombing factories for some reason.  I am always losing bombers to AA fire.

[DessertFox599]

We always play with the aniversary rule for tech. We recently tried a new rule where you get to choose the tech like revised execept that the tech you choose have those tokens on the tech you what. For example, if you bought 4 dice for advanced artillary you can’t change those dice for heavy bombers. It was cool.

[knp7765]

@cyanight:

Yes it does matter if the odds are NOT in your favor already.  I don’t roll on tech unless I first establish that I can take Moscow with a percentage chance of 90% or greater.  I roll on tech to see if I can boost my units.  I got Paratroopers one time and it helped me save my Luftwaffe from AA fire because you can select each paratrooper for an AA casualty and save your planes.

Although I tend to get lucky rolling tech I also get unlucky bombing factories for some reason.  I am always losing bombers to AA fire.

I feel your pain. In a game last month, I went in as Germany to take Moscow. While I built up my ground forces for the final assault, I flew bombers over to pound Russia’s IC. I sent 7 bombers with 2 fighter escorts. Russia sent up 7 interceptors. Russia didn’t get a single hit and I killed 3 of his fighters. I was all HA HA HA HA HA!
Then he rolled AA for the factory. He hit 4 of my bombers. AAAARRRRGH!

[cyanight]

Yea Knp, those Flak cannons can really be a pain.

[ItIsILeClerc]

The reason why I’m always extremely careful when considering bombing raids with the axis. They can’t take AAA losses as good as the allies in the long run.

The allies have their limits in taking hits too, ofc. Imagine one turn sending 12 allied Bombers over Berlin, West Germany and Rome and loosing 6 of them… Complete rubbish and hardly bearable. Then in the next turn you send in 7 bombers total and loose 4.
This happened to me once and I resigned that game because all the fun was completely gone. This was the turning point for me to decide playing LowLuck when playing 1v1. Team versus team I’m still OK rolling dice because the dice have a habit of not giving up torturing 1 player if they decided to be extremely unfair. Devastating 1v1 but in team vs team for some reason, there’s usually a jinxed person in both teams to average out. Once again I ride my hobbyhorse, venting anger on the dice ;-).

[cyanight]

ItIsILeClerc  - isn’t it the truth!  I can understand you wanting to resign after that loss and yes the Allies can take the losses easier than the axis.

[knp7765]

@DessertFox599:

We always play with the aniversary rule for tech. We recently tried a new rule where you get to choose the tech like revised execept that the tech you choose have those tokens on the tech you what. For example, if you bought 4 dice for advanced artillary you can’t change those dice for heavy bombers. It was cool.

You know, that is actually pretty realistic. If you started a tech project (buy tech dice) and are trying for advanced artillery, then your scientists are working on improving your artillery pieces. Then next round you change your mind and want to go for heavy bombers. So your scientists are looking into improving artillery then suddenly they change to trying to increase bomber capacity? Not likely.

[CWO Marc]

@knp7765:

@DessertFox599:

We always play with the aniversary rule for tech. We recently tried a new rule where you get to choose the tech like revised execept that the tech you choose have those tokens on the tech you what. For example, if you bought 4 dice for advanced artillary you can’t change those dice for heavy bombers. It was cool.

You know, that is actually pretty realistic. If you started a tech project (buy tech dice) and are trying for advanced artillery, then your scientists are working on improving your artillery pieces. Then next round you change your mind and want to go for heavy bombers. So your scientists are looking into improving artillery then suddenly they change to trying to increase bomber capacity? Not likely.

That would make an interesting house rule for Germany: “Before each dice roll for a tech, do a preliminary roll of one die.  Getting an odd number signifies that the Fuhrer has changed Germany’s research priorities, in which case roll again to randomly determine which tech Germany will pursue in this round.”

[knp7765]

@CWO:

@knp7765:

@DessertFox599:

We always play with the aniversary rule for tech. We recently tried a new rule where you get to choose the tech like revised execept that the tech you choose have those tokens on the tech you what. For example, if you bought 4 dice for advanced artillary you can’t change those dice for heavy bombers. It was cool.

You know, that is actually pretty realistic. If you started a tech project (buy tech dice) and are trying for advanced artillery, then your scientists are working on improving your artillery pieces. Then next round you change your mind and want to go for heavy bombers. So your scientists are looking into improving artillery then suddenly they change to trying to increase bomber capacity? Not likely.

That would make an interesting house rule for Germany: “Before each dice roll for a tech, do a preliminary roll of one die.  Getting an odd number signifies that the Fuhrer has changed Germany’s research priorities, in which case roll again to randomly determine which tech Germany will pursue in this round.”

Yeah, I saw in a documentary how Hitler kept changing his mind on what he wanted to develop. He also would get excited about developing some techs then lose interest and cut funding. The best example would be jet planes. It’s possible the Me262 could have been developed and put into production in 1942 instead of 1944. Could have had a real impact on the war I think.

[toblerone77]

@ Marc and KNP. I actually thought of taking the new and old non-OOB units, assigning them a number and stats, and then allowing players to buy a research factory that produces a random tech unit each turn. No not realistic but probably fun.

[CWO Marc]

@toblerone77:

@ Marc and KNP. I actually thought of taking the new and old non-OOB units, assigning them a number and stats, and then allowing players to buy a research factory that produces a random tech unit each turn. No not realistic but probably fun.

It certainly takes the concept of “secret research” to a whole new level.  I can just imagine the following conversation taking place between Roosevelt and one of his senior advisors:

“Mr. President, I’m pleased to report that our secret research facilities are now fully operational and making great progress on some new war-winning technologies.”

“Excellent.  What are they developing?”

“Um…we’re not quite sure.  They won’t tell us.”

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

@toblerone77:

@ Marc and KNP. I actually thought of taking the new and old non-OOB units, assigning them a number and stats, and then allowing players to buy a research factory that produces a random tech unit each turn. No not realistic but probably fun.

It certainly takes the concept of “secret research” to a whole new level.  I can just imagine the following conversation taking place between Roosevelt and one of his senior advisors:

“Mr. President, I’m pleased to report that our secret research facilities are now fully operational and making great progress on some new war-winning technologies.”

“Excellent.  What are they developing?”

“Um…we’re not quite sure.  They won’t tell us.”

You gotta admit though, wouldn’t be fun to be Germany and have a facility that produces a Tiger one round, a 262 next round, etc.

I know I’m a crazy, and it could break a game, but it’s just too fun.

[CWO Marc]

@toblerone77:

I know I’m a crazy, and it could break a game, but it’s just too fun.

Your earlier description of “not realistic but probably fun” describes the concept nicely: it would indeed be fun, but it would also not be realistic because in real life factories need to re-tool to switch their production from one item to another (especially if the items are very different).  I guess this could be accounted for by a secondary rule which says that, in order to switch from the production of one tech to another tech, the factory has to remain inactive for one game round.  But an even simpler solution is to just treat the concept as a purely for-fun house rule, which is fine too.

[toblerone77]

@CWO:

@toblerone77:

I know I’m a crazy, and it could break a game, but it’s just too fun.

Your earlier description of “not realistic but probably fun” describes the concept nicely: it would indeed be fun, but it would also not be realistic because in real life factories need to re-tool to switch their production from one item to another (especially if the items are very different).  I guess this could be accounted for by a secondary rule which says that, in order to switch from the production of one tech to another tech, the factory has to remain inactive for one game round.  But an even simpler solution is to just treat the concept as a purely for-fun house rule, which is fine too.

Well as for realism I like some of the tech trees I’ve seen people do. If we’re talking about a serious more realistic game it would be nice to develop a system without all the gambling. I’m sure there’s plenty of stuff on the boards about this already.

[cyanight]

Our group has had this discussion many times. It seems unrealistic that a country would develop something that is not useful.  In one of our games Russia bought a non-disposable tech dice and actually rolled a 6 then rolled on the chart and got “War Bonds” which was cool for them but if you look at the list there are very few that Russia can benefit from.  Mostly depends if they are on the offensive.  If they are on the defensive then only “War Bonds” and “Increased Factory Production” seem to be worthwhile.  “Radar” would also be good but its on a separate chart with tech that would not benefit them.  Most would say that Russia should not even consider rolling on tech and I tend to agree unless they are on the offensive and have a massive economy.