Real value of units

[Amon-Sul]

They definitely need something. I like Ur ideas.

Bats should be able to kill a unit, without it being able to return fire.

tacs, aa guns and major ics need to be changed in either cost or possibilities. I am a fan of major to have a limit of 8 or 9 units but that it cost 25 IPC

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

After many new games I have played and seen, I must say that there are definitely some units which are too expensive and/or overpowered.

Battleships and cruisers are so rarely bought that it is ridiculous.

Tacs, even tanks (except Germany mainly), and AA guns too to some measure.

I am pleading to the creators of the game to make those units more balanced for the next AA game, or the upgrade of this one.

Inf, art, mech, figs, boms and minor ICs are bought very often.
Major ICs should maybe be a little cheaper.
Harbours and airfields are more or less ok.
Cheers :)

I believe you all the way.
This little flaws have generated a lot of creative thinking of various HRs however.
It is at least a real benefits.

I share the same hope than you.

I could say about Anti-Aircraft Artillery (AAA) unit (played on 1942.2) that even letting them work almost as a regular unit with a special first round defence, it didn’t make it much popular in the few games I played.
We can even use them on attack at the same value as an Infantry unit A1.

AAA A1D1M1C5
The first round of defense is either antiaircraft shot @1 at up to three planes (as OOB) or a regular D1 when their is no plane. The other rounds, AAA defends as a regular unit @1.

It is more attractive than OOB, but even then, none were bought during any play.
Only the starting units were used in combat.

Don’t know if it is only a matter of strategy. Or if it can get much popularity somehow.

Probably more useful and buy more often in G40 (since their is a lot more aircrafts), isn’t?

[Amon-Sul]

yes something should be changed.

why to have some units which are never bought?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

Cruisers should be 11ipc, and get one special benefit: They move 3 spaces normally ( with or without naval port). Note that does not mean they can move 4 spaces with port.

Other idea is if they roll a one, a plane ( if any– must be removed)

Third option is they get one free AA roll at 1 ( built in floating AA defense)

You summarize almost all options, except the much aggressive 2 IPCs reduction to 10 IPCs.

I could say, for my part, that lowering to 11 IPCs and adding just this little 1 preemptive AA@1 on first round, it makes the difference for UK. Cruisers are a lot more appealing to defend transports against Germans Luftwaffe.

We also played it needing to be paired with Battleship or Carrier to get the special AA@1 benefit, combined with a 1 IPC redux, it is just enough to see them being bought every game.

[Amon-Sul]

1. i think that we should have a mid ic

5-6 units, 20 something IPC

2. i like the third air unit. i should just make it better and more diverse from fighter.

3.tanks are too expensive and cant match inf, art, mechs in buyings. if they would cost 5 they would be too strong. i suggest some slight improvement for them. i do not know what.

4. aa guns are too rarely bought.

5.bats should gain the ability to kill unit instantly and/or to be repaired at the end of the first allied turn. so if u have a uk bat it is fixed on anzac turn.

yes

acs, subs, destroyers, tras are bought often.

making the cruiser let s say the ability to shot air in some opening fire would be great, something like this. i would like to make it more diverse and air killer, designed for that purpose. it makes sense.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

yes something should be changed.

why to have some units which are never bought?

On AAA units, don’t know if it is a general observation and if all players agreed that there is very few AAA buying.

Maybe this unit is statistically balance in itself (power against planes/cost) but in the overall strategy it gets in competition with Inf A1D2C3 and Art A2D2C4 and for 1 more IPC, you get a unit blitzing up to 2 spaces: Tank A3D3C6.

Maybe the power of a AAA unit should be reduce and his cost also, to be more attractive.
I’m thinking something like an AAA unit working as OOB but against only 2 planes but at a 3 IPCs cost.
So when you get 2 AAA for 6 IPCs you get 2 hits and can defend against up to 4 planes.
AAA A0D0M1C3 1 hit, get 1 preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.

---

Against planes it is just a little bit better:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
3 modified AAAs A0D0C9, 3 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.

[Imperious Leader]

The truth is the cost should be 10.5, but we deal in round numbers and as such additional benefit should be considered if we go by 11 IPC.

To lower to 10 IPC would be terrible, SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

2. i like the third air unit. i should just make it better and more diverse from fighter.

5.bats should gain the ability to kill unit instantly and/or to be repaired at the end of the first allied turn. so if u have a uk bat it is fixed on anzac turn.

making the cruiser let s say the ability to shot air in some opening fire would be great, something like this. i would like to make it more diverse and air killer, designed for that purpose. it makes sense.

On Cruiser’s AA capacity, Larry think about it last time in revised Global. But, it just let go. (Sad.) He try something to boost it up in the 1914 version by giving M3. Don’t know if it really change something against Subs and BBs moving at 2 in this game.

You should really try giving 1 preemptive AA@1 capacity to cruiser, even at 12 IPCs, it could be psychologically attractive to many players.

@Baron:

While discussing on Global development, Larry said:

Oh… by the way… I’m ready to reduce the cost of cruisers to 11 IPCs. I also like the idea of adding an AA-gun like power to them. I suspect that would end up not cutting the mustard, however. Just too many steps and additional rules involved.
LH-e

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4060&hilit=cruiser+11+IPC+cruiser+11IPCs&start=80

After all, maybe a Cruiser can be balance this way while adding some historical features (M3, AA):
CL A3D3M3C11, 1 AA@1 on def. vs 1 plane

Because, of course at 10 IPCs with 2 others additions, cruiser will be overboosted.

On BB, you can also simply make the G1940 BB become a 1942.2 BB (which don’t need repair after the battle when hit).  
But it will be detrimental to Naval Base.

On Air, I like the historical feel for Tactical Bomber being more dangerous than a Fighter against ground units, even on defense, with this combination when played it:
Fg A3D3M4C9, hit a plane on any “1” rolled.
TacB A3-4D4M4C11, get +1A when paired to Fg or Tank.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

The truth is the cost should be 10.5, but we deal in round numbers and as such additional benefit should be considered if we go by 11 IPC.

To lower to 10 IPC would be terrible, SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10.

What is your way of coming to this number of 10.5 IPC?

I’m curious, after all the discussion we have on this forum about cruiser.

If I take you on words IL:

SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10

Cruiser A3D3M2, just compare to an existing unit…

Fighter: A3D4M4C10, give +1A to TcB (and can “SB @3” every round: A3)  :wink:

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

3.tanks are too expensive and cant match inf, art, mechs in buyings. if they would cost 5 they would be too strong. i suggest some slight improvement for them. i do not know what.

Here is how I boosted indirectly the Armor unit:
@Baron:

Here is a much more A&A paradigm rules version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD) that I revised from my previous post:

Mechanized Artillery (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can blitz when at least a Tank is present in a group of units.
It means that any number of MechArt can blitz when a Tank is blitzing. In addition, this Tank can be already paired to a MechInf while blitzing.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mech Infantry.
Tank Hunter as a Tank Support ability: Get +1A/D when paired to a Tank.

This unit on attack cannot give and get both bonus as Inf support & Tank support when teamed up with both MI and Tk.
You must choose which bonus is use, and can change during the battle round, switching from one to the other according to which unit the MechArt is paired to.

I think it could be better balance and nearer A&A pairing bonus.

---

Some may prefer give +1 on Def only when paired to a Tank but this unit will be much more appealing if it get +1A also.

I think it will be nearer the historical records about all kind of Mech Artillery.
Germany for instance built a lot of them and even much more than Tanks during WWII, specially StuGIII type.
And during the game, it will be a way to get an optimized built by having a Mech Art paired to an already existing Tank. It will follow the same progression than WWII, this unit getting more and more popular as the war evolved.

In itself it will be weaker (A2D2C5) but cheaper than medium Tank (A3D3C6).

But was useful for both Inf and Tank support.
And dangerous against Tank, hence gaining the bonus on A/D making them as valuable than a reg Tank but keeping the need to buy Tank to get Mech Art such a useful unit on offense and defense.

I also learned that during WWII both Artillery division (supporting Inf) and Panzer division were having struggle with the Army Chief Command over StuG being part of their unit instead of the other.

Even this aspect can be depicted by the dual bonus for being paired to Inf and MechInf or with Armor.

And how it can solve the cost problem (as far as I can see it):

@Baron:

The core of a ground battle is between A@3 vs D@2 unit.
With a Battlecalc, you get 50-50% chance of winning when 9 units @3 fight 11 units @2.
This means that a real balance cost of unit should be:
1 unit A3D3 should cost 5.5 IPCs and 1 unit A2D2 should cost 4.5 IPCs.

That explain why Tank moving 2 at 5 IPCs was a bit OverPowered vs other units like Art at 4 IPCs with M1.

Tank A3D3M2C6 compared to a A2D2M2C5 unit seems almost correct since both have a +.5 IPC over the balance level of 5.5  vs 4.5.

Now, about a MechArt A2D2M2C5 unit getting +1 A/D when paired to a Tank, it will be straight on the mark:
A6D6M2**C11 for 2 units, which is A3D3M2C5.5 for 1 unit**.
2 Tanks A6D6M2C12 are actually 1 IPC over the mark and this slight unbalancing effect increase of .5 IPC with each additional Tank.

You can see how good on defense is an Inf A1D2C3 being 1.5 under the line.
Even the MechInf is still .5 below the cost on defense.
(Not considering the offence, however. Which makes them less OP vs cost of A2D2 or A3D3.)

[Imperious Leader]

If I take you on words IL:
Quote
SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10

Cruiser A3D3M2, just compare to an existing unit…

Fighter: A3D4M4C10, give +1A to TcB (and can “SB @3” every round: A3)  wink

The cruiser also has shore bombard at 3, other units don’t get this. Plug in combat results with say 6 cruisers vs. 9 Destroyers at oob prices. Then do same study with CA costing 10 ( change quantity of cruisers in combat to 8 vs.10 Destroyers). Note swing in results, then consider SB value.

Fighters should not be used in comparison, they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

Just compare DD and CA.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

The cruiser also has shore bombard at 3, other units don’t get this. Plug in combat results with say 6 cruisers vs. 9 Destroyers at oob prices. Then do same study with CA costing 10 ( change quantity of cruisers in combat to 8 vs.10 Destroyers). Note swing in results, then consider SB value.

Fighters should not be used in comparison, they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

Just compare DD and CA.

Plug in combat results with say 6 cruisers vs. 9 Destroyers

Overall %*: A. survives: 17.6% D. survives: 81% No one survives: 1.4%

Change quantity of cruisers in combat to 8 vs.10 Destroyers

Overall %*: A. survives: 45.5% D. survives: 52.6% No one survives: 1.9%

The cruisers at 10 IPCs is still on the loosing side.

The DDs have still 7% more chance to survive the battle.

About Shore Bombardment:
If there is any combat in the SZ, then it is forfeited and Cruiser isn’t better than DDs.

What was your point?

Maybe Destroyers need some kind of Shore Bombardment?
As it was historically the case…
(I just saw a documentary on the importance of DD shore bombardment along the Normandy’s beaches during D-day. They save many US soldiers lives with their 5" guns.
Some captains (doing Shore bombardment against their orders) even get so near the beaches that the DD’s hull touch the bottom under the water.)

I just found my older thread on this topic:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30249.msg1091515#msg1091515

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

If I take you on words IL:
Quote
SB @3 and a 3-3 unit is too powerful at 10

Cruiser A3D3M2, just compare to an existing unit…

Fighter: A3D4M4C10, give +1A to TcB (and can “SB @3” every round: A3)  wink

Fighters should not be used in comparison, they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

You know, I was just kidding you because you only say: “unit” instead of “sea unit”.

Clearly, everybody knows that a Fighter put on a Carrier, is always a better investment than a dummy Cruiser because, as you say:

they can fly over land or sea. Ships cant.

And they get 2 additional moves.
And they can also be part of the amphibious assault supporting ground units even if their was a battle in the SZ.

Very much more powerful than a Cruiser which would be a the same cost.

I still wonder how:

is your way of coming to this number of 10.5 IPC/ cruiser?

So rounding up to 11 IPCs.

[Imperious Leader]

Recollection of old arguments. Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Amon-Sul:

Bats should be able to kill a unit, without it being able to return fire.

This particular point was discuss at the beginning of this Thread:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31177.msg1137233#msg1137233

But I think it’s started here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28725.msg1137029#msg1137029

By the way, this whole thread talk a lot about AA Guns and Cruisers.
But it is only on this present one, the first time that I introduce the idea of a 3 IPCs AAA units targeting 2 planes instead of 3.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31933.msg1253951#msg1253951

Hope you can find something to add to your thoughts in these older threads.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

Recollection of old arguments. Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

True. That’s why, I tried to emphasized on different aspects.

What do you mean here?

Cruiser at 9 brings it closer.

9 IPCs, so you are making a joke.  :-D
Or 9 Destroyers or 9 cruisers, still not sure about what you mean’t.  :?

And about the 10.5 IPCs/cruiser,
I’m not trolling.
I can’t truly remember what was your way of cost calculation to get this price.
It is not rhetorical, you can make a point.  :-)

[Imperious Leader]

In Battle calculator you now have 9 destroyers and 8 cruisers ( given a new cost of 9 for CA). The margin is very close.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Imperious:

In Battle calculator you now have 9 destroyers and 8 cruisers ( given a new cost of 9 for CA). The margin is very close.

Hi IL,
you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

8 Cruisers vs 9 Destroyers (10 000 times):

Overall %*: A. survives: 65% D. survives: 33.1% No one survives: 1.9%

The Cruiser is now crushing DD.

It can’t be balance to put CA at 9 IPCs.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

On AAA units, don’t know if it is a general observation and if all players agreed that there is very few AAA buying.

Maybe this unit is statistically balance in itself (power against planes/cost) but in the overall strategy it gets in competition with Inf A1D2C3 and Art A2D2C4 and for 1 more IPC, you get a unit blitzing up to 2 spaces: Tank A3D3C6.

Maybe the power of a AAA unit should be reduce and his cost also, to be more attractive.
I’m thinking something like an AAA unit working as OOB but against only 2 planes but at a 3 IPCs cost.
So when you get 2 AAA for 6 IPCs you get 2 hits and can defend against up to 4 planes.
AAA A0D0M1C3 1 hit, get 1 preemptive strike @1 against up to 2 planes, whichever is less.

---

Against planes it is just a little bit better:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
3 modified AAAs A0D0C9, 3 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.

Here I have a more drastic way to get a larger number of AAA unit but at a lower cost, being this way much more interesting to buy.
It will be less effective than the regular OOB but I’d like a comment of your part.

AAA A0D0M1C2 1 hit, can make up to 1@1 preemptive shot per plane at the beginning of a combat.

---

On balance:

Against planes, it is just a little weaker but have much more hits:
2 OOB AAAs A0D0C10, 2 hits, can target up to 6 planes on the first round.
5 cheap AAAs A0D0C10, 5 hits, can target up to 5 planes on the first round.

And vs my previous version:
2 modified AAAs A0D0C6, 2 hits, can target up to 4 planes on the first round.
3 cheap AAAs A0D0C6, 3 hits, can target up to 3 planes on the first round.

It is a 2 IPCs units, it is clearly affordable but much weaker than OOB AAA.
But is it too affordable?
Don’t forget that this unit at A0D0 have only a casualty value nothing else.

It can go down to a 4 IPCs unit and attack only up to 2 planes, but it still seems too weak and expensive.
It doesn’t have the appeal of a Mech Inf nor an Art.
That’s why I first lower the cost to 3 IPCs.
Maybe any 2 IPCs unit (even at A0D0) creates a too much bigger defensive change in the game dynamics.

---

Finally, on simplicity:

By going 1 unit : up to 1 plane maximum, the ratio is simple and it becomes like all other A&A units which can only fire at 1 unit per roll.

[Imperious Leader]

you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

i was reading the results incorrectly. I don’t use the calculators in general. I was looking at average IPC loss and i added in 3 BB per side, not just win %.

Well even if Cruisers are 9 IPC and Destroyers are 8, it just proves it cant be balanced by cost.

Which brings us back to the original point, that you must give the CA another value. Sims do not solve all problems.