Subs/Sealion question.

[Canuck12]

Why is everyone so concerned with the British subs when doing sealion?

Am I having a major brainfart when I think that if the UK builds subs I can still attack them with my subs and my BB and Cr? Just not the planes.

Everywhere I read they say “Make sure you build that dd before you do sealion.” But it seems to me your CR BB sub and CV should be able to handle however many subs UK puts in the water.

Am I missing something here?

[knp7765]

Not only that, but according to the rules, as long as you have warships accompanying your transports, you could actually ignore the subs and proceed with the invasion. That is, unless Britain scrambles fighters, in which case the British subs would join in the battle against your fleet and whatever aircraft you designate to support the naval action.

I guess people stress buying a destroyer so that your planes can also hit those subs. If Britain were to put 4 subs in SZ 110 and you attack with your battleship, cruiser and carrier (along with the transports of course), there is a chance, however unlikely, that the British subs could end up torpedoing all of your warships leaving your transports unescorted, in which case they would be forced to turn back and the invasion cancelled. Plus, all those transports would be fully loaded without any defense which would make it easy for UK on their next turn to cost Germany a whole lot of money.
Okay, suppose on the round right before Germany’s invasion, Britain has 30 IPCs to spend and plops down 5 submarines in SZ 110. On Germany’s turn, they come with 1 battleship, 1 cruiser, 1 carrier, 11 transports, 2 fighters and 2 Stukas. UK scrambles 3 fighters. Now, Germany’s planes can NOT hit the subs so any of their hits have to be taken on the British fighters. So that leaves just the battleship @4 and cruiser @3 to hit back against 5 British submarines since the carrier and transports have no attack value.
Now, granted the subs defend weakly at just a 1, but if the British player gets a couple of lucky rolls and the German battleship or cruiser miss, it’s possible the British could get lucky and sink all three German warships. Even if all three UK fighters are killed, if German planes are left with no German ships, they can’t hit the British subs and the German transports would have to retreat.
However, with even just 1 German destroyer, all German hits could be applied to the British subs unless the British player wants to sacrifice fighters @4 defense for subs @1 defense. Even if he does that, the worst you will probably end up doing is choosing your cruiser and perhaps your battleship as casualties before the destroyer so that your planes can still kill whatever UK subs are left and protect those transports.

[Canuck12]

Interesting. This is the conclusion I have come to as well.

Cheers!

[Commando Brado]

I think more importantly, the British player let’s SeaLion happen, then attacks the German navy on the next turn w/the 5 Brit Subs @ 2 and most likely guarantees the 1 AC, 1 BB, 1 CC and 11 Trans sink. W/a DD, you guarantee your aircraft can hit on both attack and defense.

[knp7765]

So you are suggesting that the British player loses his capital so that he can sink the German navy? Seems kind of far fetched to me. Yeah, I guess if the German navy were taken out, it would help the US Navy later on and they could liberate London possibly. In the mean time, Germany got to plunder the British treasury and run hog wild on Russia while Italy gets strong in the Med and Africa since the UK can no longer replace their losses there. I suppose India could send stuff over to face Italy, but what if they are being pressured by Japan?

When I play Germany, I do like having my navy and try my best to keep it from being sank. However, once Sealion is accomplished, I tend to feel like the navy has served it’s purpose and anything it accomplishes afterward is just gravy. I don’t tend to worry much about the navy, excepting for U-boats to try and keep the US fleet at bay, until Russia is “in the bag”. Once that happens, assuming the Italians have managed to take Cairo as well, it’s an Axis victory in Europe.

[ghr2]

It is suggested that the british player can sink the german navy before it can land the sealion invasion force if he builds 5 subs.  Germany would usually only have his cruiser and maybe a carrier in the attack.

[Commando Brado]

@knp7765:

So you are suggesting that the British player loses his capital so that he can sink the German navy? Seems kind of far fetched to me. Yeah, I guess if the German navy were taken out, it would help the US Navy later on and they could liberate London possibly. In the mean time, Germany got to plunder the British treasury and run hog wild on Russia while Italy gets strong in the Med and Africa since the UK can no longer replace their losses there. I suppose India could send stuff over to face Italy, but what if they are being pressured by Japan?

When I play Germany, I do like having my navy and try my best to keep it from being sank. However, once Sealion is accomplished, I tend to feel like the navy has served it’s purpose and anything it accomplishes afterward is just gravy. I don’t tend to worry much about the navy, excepting for U-boats to try and keep the US fleet at bay, until Russia is “in the bag”. Once that happens, assuming the Italians have managed to take Cairo as well, it’s an Axis victory in Europe.

Not suggesting, but if Germany is committed to SeaLion, there is nothing the Brits can do to stop it. It’s just a matter of how many German units the Brits want to kill. If Germany wants to do SeaLion on Turn 3, then the Brits can build 4 Inf, 4 Art on Turn 1, then 5 Subs, 1 Art on Turn 2, as mentioned below. I don’t think SeaLion is the best strategy for the Axis. In all the games(OOB, Alpha 2, Alpha 3, 2nd edition), I’ve seen where Germany SeaLion’s, it brings the US into the war early(BIG mistake), especially if the US player goes KGF, which is should if Germany SeaLion’s and Russia builds a massive force, which Germany can’t deal with. By the time the Germans get enough forces to the east to deal w/Russia(Turn 4 or Turn 5). Russia has a massive stack. It’s a stalemate. All the while, Germany is trying to defend the UK from being retaken by the US.

If the German player forgets to build a DD on Turn 2 and you build 5 Subs on Turn 2 w/the Brits, then you can possibly stop SeaLion from happening or let SeaLion happen on Turn 3, then kill the German navy, depending on what the Germans built on Turn 3. I’ve seen many noobs, not build a DD w/Germany on Turn 2 or not build enough navy to defend against the 5 Brit Subs and have seen the Germany navy attempt SeaLion on Turn 3 and watched the whole German navy w/fully loaded transports go to the bottom of the ocean, either before or after SeaLion.

I’ve also seen the Brits not build in the UK on Turn 2, knowing a SeaLion was coming but rather build Subs, then sink the German navy on Turn 3, leaving a huge German force stranded in the UK for the remainder of the game. I’m talking Inf, Art and expensive tanks. Then, the Allies just convoy disrupt the hell out of the Axis(Italy included) for the remainder of the game, which negates the IPC’s you get for the UK.

In all my games, it’s best for the Axis to keep the US out of the war as long as possible.

As for the Italians, if you neuter the Italian fleet in SZ96 and SZ97 on Turn 1 w/the Brits, it’s pretty hard for the Italians to recover. AND, if you SeaLion and bring the US into the war early and go KGF, that usually means that Italy will be further neutered by the US. Plenty of Brit units to hold the Italians off for a few turns, while the US comes into the war.

[ghr2]

If the latest version, the UK tends to have a good shot at holding a G3 sealion, but G4 is almost a guarantee for Germany.  This all depends on how much UK is going to yield to Italy and the state of the Canadians.

[Jennifer]

@knp7765:

So you are suggesting that the British player loses his capital so that he can sink the German navy? Seems kind of far fetched to me. Yeah, I guess if the German navy were taken out, it would help the US Navy later on and they could liberate London possibly. In the mean time, Germany got to plunder the British treasury and run hog wild on Russia while Italy gets strong in the Med and Africa since the UK can no longer replace their losses there. I suppose India could send stuff over to face Italy, but what if they are being pressured by Japan?

Yes, but Germany spent 2 rounds of income on a fleet so they essentially lose their ground units, probably some air units, the French treasury and whatever ground they have left would be sitting on London, assuming this worked/works.

So what’s holding back the Russians at that point?  They can DOW the round London falls.  (great, now I have that Fergie song in my head!  Bastages!!!)