@Black_Elk:
Not sure where I pulled pearl, must have been thinking of AA50 the Japanese air hit against sz56 since I was playing that the other day too :-D But in any case, there are a few more key transport defenses for Allies in 42.2 over Axis, so it feels like it would lean towards Allied balance, which is a good thing. Probably just more satisfying overall, whatever the effects on the opening. Return them their hit value at 1 (per group as suggested) and taken last, just seems more interesting. It combines the old Classic lucky shot, but doesn’t give up the fodder problem, but makes the unit more potent for the price.
Agreed keep it at 7 ipcs
Lucky 7
I’m going to play this way in my next face to face game for sure! Will test it out next Thursday see if the gang enjoys.
Also, if you really want to keep it from changing the opening, you could also make it a force multiplier thing, where only two transports together “A Group” get this defensive boost +1. Two or more transports together would no longer become defenseless. But the not cumulative just the 1 hit for the entire group, whatever its total number, as long as there are at least two transports in the group. This could all be interpreted as a “combined arms” type bonus, where the transport gets boosted by other transports such that the whole group gets to fire together at a 1, whereas single transports would behave OOB. Or you could just apply it universally to all transports whether single or in a group together.
What it is interesting here is that there would be a natural incentive to “fan out” your transports to try to get multiple bonuses on defense instead of just keeping one transports stack, it might be better to split them into smaller groups to get more bang out of them on defense. Things like this might encourage more island hopping, or branching out naval game instead of just a ship stack fest in a few zones. I think these changes could be popular if it feels right.
**So 1 lone transport still defends at zero.
2 transports defend at 1,
3 transports still defend at 1
4 transports still defend at 1, but…
If you broke them into 2 groups in two separate sea zones then you’d get double the defense value! Two chances to hit at a 1. This as a way to encourage fanning out over stacking together in the naval game on transport defense.**
See where I am going with it? :)
might be cool.
If handled that way, as a combined arms type thing, then the only opening battle affected would be the German sub hit on the US Atlantic transports. But that battle is a little busted anyway, and some even bid a destroyer there believing it is critical. Short of a destroyer added in, the group transport bonus, would give a slight disincentive for German Uboats to hit, they might go after the Canadian transports instead just to avoid the risk of that extra 1 haha
Here is what I found, clearly we are likely-minded on that issue, since the very first post I introduced in the Defenseless transport thread is this one: :-o
@Baron:
@BJCard:
@Uncrustable:
Why not give transports a defense of 1 but still must be taken as casualties last ?
Increase their cost to 8
Because a transport having a defense of 1 is too generous.
In Classic, transports represented actual transports and escort ships- now escort ships have been decoupled from transports in the form of destroyers.
Hi everybody,
their is some middleway here.
Keep at 7 IPCs. It is already a long road to buy an escort fleet, transport and ground units. And bridging from one island to another requires much more transport to travel the same two ground units. The chain of communication is easily outstreched and vulnerable in PTO.
Give any group (2 or more) of Transports a collective defense of 1.
Even in a naval battle with other vessels, give at the start of naval battle the transport group a defense @1.
Transports are still chosen last.
When their is no more combat ship, the attacker still rolls and destroy as many transports as he got hits.
It lasts until the last transport has sunk (which still have 1@1).
The capacity to take hits is already a good defense.
I see no need to add more than the single@1 for all the group.
However, keep a single isolated transport as an easy target with no defense.
Historically, we can think that there is some corvettes and frigates (but not much) inside a group of transports, 2 units or more (14 IPCs and +).
Another possibility is to limit this @1 as AA only for 2 or more transports. So no combat ship could be kill by the lighter guns on board any troop transports.
The same idea but going a little further:
@Baron:
@toblerone77:
The whole point of having a transport with a def of 1 is so that it is not a sitting duck. It’s no battleship but at least it’s not totally easy pickings. I like being able to send out a transport out by itself and taking a risk with it. By the same token it makes your opponent think twice before he sends out some lone fighter or bomber to attack you. It forces them to think about losing precious aircraft to attack a transport rather than simply wiping otu a unit of opportunity with no risk.
That’s why I suggest a 1@1 for 2 or more transports plus playing every hit on them.
If attacker throw only 1 Fg @3 against 3TPs, it will take at least 3 lucky rounds before all TPs get drowned. At each round, their is still odds at 1/6 (like a AA gun) to get this Fg down.
IMHO, this far risky that the attacker will put much more aircrafts to be sure not to have too many combat cycles with those TPs.
And as write it down, I was thinking about a house rule “Air Supremacy” which imply that an aircraft makes preemptive shot against naval only target with no air support. To counterweight the huge impact of 3 rounds with odds at 1/6 every time.
I eared only of Guadalcanal and Truk’s air raids against transports ships.
And they didn’t make the weight against fighters and TacB.
They were sitting ducks even with their on board AA guns.
In such situation,
the odds are for 1 Fighter @3 against 3 Transports, 3 hits and 1 Def @1 for the entire group:
Overall %*: A. survives: 36.7% D. survives: 56.6% No one survives: 6.7%
It is roughly a 1/3 of survival.
Giving a preemptive strike to Fighter, when attacking Transport only:
Overall %*: A. survives: 37.3% D. survives: 55.2% No one survives: 7.6%
This doesn’t change anything.
In fact, thinking about it, since there is only 1 attacker, the first and second hits still let the defensive fire roll @1 applied.
So, this idea doesn’t work to fix the issue on the 1 combat unit against more than 1 transports.
@Baron:
@toblerone77:
Based on the game’s simulation of WWII era combat, using a D6 system, a defensive factor of 1 which is lowest defensive score is appropriate.
The argument for no defense is still not valid, and the justification for removing it is as well. It is impossible for one unit comprising of mostly fighters to destroy the equivalent of hundeds if not thousands of ships.
I’ll use the submarine argument against air vs. sub imbalance then. A transport should be able to retreat after one round of attack. The same way a sub can submerge. The TRN can be tipped on it’s side as if retreating. There were blockade runners in all kinds of wars.
Hell let’s just get rid of them and go for sea routes ala Risk! There were thousands of transports travelling alone all over the globe un-contested.
It is possible to get a lower rate that 1 unit @1: 1/6 per unit.
AA guns get 3@1 once.
I suggested: 2 and more TPs get only 1D@1 but endure as many hits as they are.
A fleeing tactics can be imagine:
Philip Schwartzer from Gamers Paradise suggested that two or more TPs can be attack by 2@4 for each Sub and BB.
For a single round, you can double dice for every attacking units and let the remaining TPs as survivors: 1Fg @3 get 2@3/ 1StrB get 2@4, etc.
Hi Black_Elk,
I may have find something which can be a way to let transport have a little defense roll.
It can be similar to the actual AAA unit. The only difference could be that each transport can only get 1 defense roll @1.
Once this is done, all transports are considered destroyed if there is at least 1 attacking unit remaining.
Transports can only roll their defense when at least 1 casualty is allocated to them.
For example: 1 Fg is attacking 3 Transports.
Round 1) Fighter roll a hit but any one of the transport roll a “1”, then the battle is over.
1 Fighter and 1 transport are killed. But 2 transports remained in the SZ.
If none of the Transports nor the Fighter get a hit, then all the transports will be destroyed but the Fighter is still alive.
I don’t find it is better than the earlier idea above, but it is still different than KNP7765’s HR on defenseless transport.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30618.msg1288468#msg1288468
I probably get a better idea here:
Still keep that possibility that transports in a group can roll 1def@1 and each transport have 1 hit value and are still chosen as last casualties.
When attacking the escort units of transports, the transports group is allowed to roll 1 defense @1 each round.
When there is no more escorting units for transports, each attacking unit which scores a hit against transports, in a given combat round, is now immuned from retaliation for the duration of this combat round.
So, as long as an attacking unit gets a succesful roll, this unit cannot be destroyed.
Example: 2 surviving Bombers can now attack 8 Transports, as it is the remnants of a larger fleet.
Under the 1 def@1 roll per transports group, CalC gives:
Overall %*: A. survives: 60.7% D. survives: 35% No one survives: 4.4%
Adding the immunization rule, it will still gives better odds for the attacker:
Round 1 : both Bombers get 4 or less, 2 transports are lost and no defense roll can be made.
Round 2: 1 hit and 1 miss, 1 transport is lost but 1 defense roll @1 can be made, let’s suppose a miss.
Round 3: 2 hits, 2 transports are lost and no defense roll allowed.
Round 4: no hit, 1 defense roll @1 allowed, let’s suppose a hit. 1 Bombers remains and 3 transports alive.
Round 5: 1 hit, no defense roll allowed (since, the only bomber is immuned). 1 bomber still in the air and 2 transports alive.
Round 6: no hit, 1 defense roll @1 allowed, let’s suppose a miss. 1 bomber still in the air and 2 transports alive.
Etc.
So, Transports can never get more than 1 hit per combat round.
And sometimes, get no defense roll (when all attacking units are successful).
This means, that any lonely transport can get an opportunity to roll for 1 defense @1, as long as it is not destroyed by the attackers.
Lonely attacking unit can have better odds of survival that way against a superior number of transports.
Mainly, if it keeps lucky and have successful rolls in a row.
While a massive attack will probably left more odds of rolling on defense.
Example: 6 Destroyers against 10 Transports.
As long as 1 attacking unit miss a target, the transports group can roll for a defense @1.
It is a somewhat particular mechanics, I agree.
But it gives a better protection to the attacker when there is few units, while it is practically the same effect against a massive attacking groups.
This can somehow solve the issue on opening battle without requiring the other rule about 2 transports together to get a defense roll @1.
We can rationalize this special restriction on the fact that attacking units with their greater offensive power can outguns any transport unit, such as a special preemptive attack.
And, since Transports are not actively defending against all units (as could be the case for warships and aircrafts), an attacking unit is only after 1 enemy unit at a time, so when it misses, the Transports group gets its opportunity to roll for defensive fire.
