I can agree with vonLettowVorbeck1914
For the sake of simplicity, and to prevent the nightmare scenario of an off limits Istanbul such a suggestion should be considered.
OR an alternative that the Central Powers can delay the Armistice, if they wish, until they can recapture critical territories.
However, just having the Russians remove all presences outside of their original territory is much better.
I’m beginning to suspect that the RR as written is a dead letter because:
1. Since it occurs on the Russian turn, the Allies will manipulate it to their advantage, particularly by ensuring it happens before the CPs can take Moscow, thus denying them the advantages of that including obtaining a victory objective.
2. In the light of 1. above, the CP will ensure that the circumstances in which revolution can occur never in fact so so, and that they take Moscow by a direct route instead, thus precluding any chance of Revolution.
I think they’d better think it out again.
@Texas:
Kreighund,
Any chance that there will be an official change for the tank- making it a cost of $5 instead of $6???� I don’t wanna get ahead of myself but several here think (and those tested the game already think) that the tank is useless as it stands.� No real purpose of buying it, might as well soak hits with the more powerful infantry or artillery.� The tank as a unit already seems broken.� Can you explain futher???
Waiting for a reply on this- thanks. :-)
I think once you see it in action or run the numbers, you will change your mind on the tank.
Here is an example of its effect in combat compared to an equal cost of 2 infantry. For simplicity, I won’t list the units accompanying these units and the numbers are the sum of all units attack/defense.
Offense 1
1 tank - attack 2
2 inf - attack 4Defense 1
1 tank, 1 inf - defend 4
2 inf - defend 6Offense 2
1 tank, 1 inf - attack 4
2 inf - attack 4Defense 2
1 tank, 2 inf - defend 7
2 inf - defend 6It just keeps adding after that. The initial investment will weaken you, but the western front will not be one in one round of combat. Also, say the above was taking place in Lorraine, the infantry saved by the tank are infantry that didn’t have to be purchased and marched 4 spots from Berlin. The combat is a lot slower in this version, even more so with the large number of spaces between Berlin and Paris.
You seem to be comparing apples to oranges here. Ex.in Attack 2:
1tnk, 1inf= 9IPCs versus 2inf= 6IPC.
This should be 3inf= 9IPC at an attack of 6
vs.
1tnk, 1inf= 9IPCs at an attack of 4
plus the extra inf gives you an extra hit, that washes out the tank soaking a hit. With infantry having a much better defense alone at a 3-1 advantage over the tank.
Also for 7IPCs I can buy an infantry and artillery- 2 hit shots with an attack of 6 and a defense of 6 and not to mention the possibility of air supremacy to bump up the artillery up to 7/7.
All that versus 1 single tank at 6IPCs, with equal movement, no air supremacy bonus, attack at 2 and defense at 1 and to compensate all the tank gets is a single soak hit.
I could run some other combos and I do realize that I may be getting ahead of myself but the initial numbers don’t seem to make sense.
Am I really missing something here??? If I am, PLEASE Kreighund or somebody enlighten me… :?
Totally agreeing with questioneer. I see close to no use for tanks due to their price and defense. I guess i wont know until I play the game. :|
Krieg, considering I will probably be getting the game tomorrow and am set to get a big game together on the coming weekend with a few friends is there any way you could condense some of the major issues into a mini-faq?
I’m already planning on doing this on Friday.
A. For the Revolution, must one of the “other” territories (the one needed in addition to the (at least) 3 adjacent territories) be a territory NOT adjacent to Moscow? In other words, if the CP control 4 territories adjacent to moscow but somehow control no others, does the Revolution occur?
It can be any original Russian territory.
B. It’s not terribly likely, but it seems that if other Allies are in Russia, they can cut off CP forces from being able to leave after the revolution occurs by liberating territories that would be on the CP routes out.
Could be.
C. Looking at page 15, Germany, for example, cannot move out of a contested territory into a CP ally’s controlled territory, correct? (sorry if echo)
Correct.
@AA:
Totally agreeing with questioneer. I see close to no use for tanks due to their price and defense. I guess i wont know until I play the game. :|
I just want someone to prove to me that they are cost effective versus the other choices given: artillery, infantry with planes. I understand that tanks weren’t used much but as far as game mechanics are concerned it seems at least initially that this part of the game is broken. Probably needs to be reduced to a cost of $5 and even still its doubtful that any sane person would buy them. Maybe they could remain at $6 and soak up 2 infantry only hits instead.
A. For the Revolution, must one of the “other” territories (the one needed in addition to the (at least) 3 adjacent territories) be a territory NOT adjacent to Moscow? In other words, if the CP control 4 territories adjacent to moscow but somehow control no others, does the Revolution occur?
It can be any original Russian territory.
I recommend that be put on the FAQ then; the way it is written (3 or more adjacent territories + 1 other original territory) seems to me to be clearly saying that the other is not adjacent.
Well it’s too early to decide they are ‘broken’ but you could also increase movement +1, reduce cost, allow them to soak up a hit on any land unit.
@Imperious:
Well it’s too early to decide they are ‘broken’ but you could also increase movement +1, reduce cost, allow them to soak up a hit on any land unit.
I still feel that
A) They are too expensive
B) The soaking up of a hit does not out way the price
C) By the time tanks are available you might need the ipc for pumping out as many units as possible
the only i believe that they would be useful is if you played with a house rule to bump un the defense one.
@AA:
@Imperious:
Well it’s too early to decide they are ‘broken’ but you could also increase movement +1, reduce cost, allow them to soak up a hit on any land unit.
I still feel that
A) They are too expensive
B) The soaking up of a hit does not out way the price
C) By the time tanks are available you might need the ipc for pumping out as many units as possible
the only i believe that they would be useful is if you played with a house rule to bump un the defense one.Â
I feel like if you bump up their defense to a 2 it would be totally inaccurate. Also they automatically pay for themselves in two attacks
@AA:
@Imperious:
Well it’s too early to decide they are ‘broken’ but you could also increase movement +1, reduce cost, allow them to soak up a hit on any land unit.
I still feel that
A) They are too expensive
B) The soaking up of a hit does not out way the price
C) By the time tanks are available you might need the ipc for pumping out as many units as possible
the only i believe that they would be useful is if you played with a house rule to bump un the defense one.�I feel like if you bump up their defense to a 2 it would be totally inaccurate. Also they automatically pay for themselves in two attacks
Well unless playing with a house rule such as this, tanks will be a novelty and never bought.
I think they will be useful in the Middle East and in big numbers on the Western front. Also giving a tank as much as a 1 is generous, giving it 2 is insanity.
I think they will be useful in the Middle East and in big numbers on the Western front. Also giving a tank as much as a 1 is generous, giving it 2 is insanity.
Large numbers? I fail to see how a power could produce a large number of these well overpriced. And as for the Middle East, the Turks should be committing most of their resources towards Caucus.
Im thinking that with a western front of the US, Uk, and France at least one of these powers could produce some tanks with others pitching in on defense. And don’t forget, two attacks pays for itself. :wink:
And by Middle East I mean amphibious brits
I still don’t see the advantage of 1 tank when you can buy 2 infantry for less.
@AA:
I still don’t see the advantage of 1 tank when you can buy 2 infantry for less.
They are the same and we’ll settle this on Friday :wink:
I’m just now getting to the fourth turn in our game (got it on Tuesday :-D ), so obviously we haven’t yet seen what effect tanks will have on the battles. I think we should play with them as is for a while before suggesting a change though. From what we’ve seen this is a different game then we’re used to. The way the contested territories work your not generally fighting to the death, so absorbing a few hits to keep your army strong will be beneficial as the aggressor the further you get from your capital.
Its hard to just say a tank is twice the cost of inf, attacks the same, but defends horribly so its not worth it. I get that 2 inf would cost the same and both would get to fire in a battle. The net worth of the tank as the aggressor is if the tank is involved in 3 battles that you have also kept 3 inf or art alive. As the aggressor you are probably pretty far from your capital and if you lose inf/art they could be hard to replace at the front lines.
I can see a problem though if you are buying tanks and the tide is turned, or you attack into a territory and it is contested you don’t get the free hit as the defender, and yea it rolls like crap when defending. I will still wait until I’ve seen it in action before I condemn it though.
But i want a formal apology when i prove how useless the old landships are.
Very excited for this game… found out about it just two weeks ago, and should have my game by friday. 2 quick and 1 kind of complicated questions first though…
1. Naval Bases belong to sea zones and territories, not just territories, correct? Ex., France cannot build sea units in zone 8 and 15, but only in zone 15?
2. For amphibious assaults, artillery firing at landing units are first strikes, however battleships are not? Seems odd…
3. Scenario: Germany owns Belgium and France owns Picardy. Neither are contested, and Germany has 2 transports loaded with 4 infantry in sea zone 9, while France has 4 artillery and 1 infantry in Picardy. Can Germany, on its turn, send 10 artillery into Picardy from Belgium, along with the 4 infantry from the sea, and bank on their being at least 1 infantry that survives the artillery bombardment? If so, what happens if they all die? Do the artillery have to retreat? If this tactic is illegal, what if France only had 3 artillery in Picardy, guaranteeing that at least one infantry would make it to shore. Is it legal then?
