@Jermofoot:
Here’s part of my point: how is killing “your own” people any worse than killing anyone else? They are all intrinsically the same.
Ultimately I suppose that could be true, with an “all lives are the same” reasoning. However, most people justify their assertions by how “bad” a person was in their killing by who and how they killed. This does not help my point, but it does help yours. Hitler is the universally recognized “baddest guy” because he was responsible for organizing perhaps the most grotesque mass genocide in history. That and he was the enemy of both the capitalists and the communists, who both rule the world today. Winners write the textbooks and make the villians.
My point is that maybe, as you say, there is no difference between killing your own and killing somebody elses. If that is true, the guy with the highest body count wins. Ultimately that would have to be Stalin. And if you want to blame Hitler for the entire World War, which he is not at fault for, and then count all those bodies (even his own and Axis armies) toward his “credit”, I think it is perfectly acceptable to give Stalin credit for the widespread death under communism, if only while he was alive. Though his legacy in forming and supporting authoritarian communism would beg that he be associated with communism’s enduring violence even long after his death.
@Jermofoot:
First, your source is highly misleading and pretty much completely wrong. The methodology is crap as well. I don’t have the time to detail everything, but it’s complete BS to pin all those deaths on Stalin.
Directly attributed deaths to Stalin are around 3 million from official Soviet Records. These are ordered executions, purges, and death during imprisonment. The truth is likely higher, and some suggest anywhere from 4 million to 10 million.
If you want to include famines during his reign, which the blame is also debatable, you’ll garnish some where around 7 million, maybe more if you’re feeling generous on what constitutes actual blame on what Stalin did or didn’t do.
All in all, most seem to suggest 15 million at a minimum, 20 million at a maximum (which you said, but that’s again part of the debate). That’s a fairly wide margin, though. Oh, and included in those death tolls are around 1 million German civilians and POWs. You know, from the war Hitler started.
Okay. Let’s say you are right, Stalin kills 20 million max and Hitler kills 12 million max. … Who is worse? Stalin because he killed more, or Hitler because he did it in a more inhumane way? That is your call to make, but my point was that in terms of numbers, it is easier to say Stalin was worse. Not that I am arguing for that, just that you could.
@Jermofoot:
And if you think communism is to blame, then why don’t you blame Karl Marx?
You know, that is a darn good idea… It is all Karl Marx’s fault. The real bastard.
No. Communism itself is not to blame, it is an idea. The person to blame is the one who took communism and used it to aggrandize power and force the deaths of millions. Stalin was the first and the model for all who followed. He is most directly to blame for the next two worst communist countries: China and North Korea. Stalin and the USSR made them.
I am not going to argue for this cause and effect “BS”, as you said, because I don’t have to. Numerically, Stalin is worse than Hitler and that is a fact. Whether you want to argue who was worse based on who they killed and the method is a different story.
However, if blaming Stalin for related communist regimes is bogus then saying that Hitler is directly responsible for the 50-60 million deaths of WWII is just as bogus. Should Emperor Hirohito or Hideki Tojo be blamed for all the deaths of the Pacific/Asiatic war, including the destruction brought upon their own people, because “they started it”?
@Jermofoot:
So you’re telling me that while Stalin gets pinned for deaths that occur well after he’s dead and in completely different countries as well, the same person doesn’t use the same methodology for Hitler? Doesn’t even include the entire length of WW2, or the deaths caused by it?
The credit for Stalin on all those deaths was assigned by me, not the source, which seems to have very accurate and reliable numbers. And in fact, his methodology on the Nazis is much better than it is for the Communists. Mostly, this is because there was only ever one Nazi state in history while there have been many communist states. How would you take into account deaths by the Nazis/Hitler after May 1945? Hitler was dead and Nazi rule in Gemany was over… there were no Nazis in power to kill anyone else. Hitler and his system were dead, whereas Stalin’s system (and very nature of the government he created) lived on well after his death. You cannot really blame the Nazis for post-war deaths like starvation or disease or poverty can you? The Allies rectified much of that situation. Wouldn’t you know it was the Communists who didn’t…
@Jermofoot:
Do I need to continue on how terrible your source is?
No. It was poorly used, but not poor itself. Can you find statistical fault in the data? I did not.
@Jermofoot:
[It’s a matter of a poll and simple opinion. And I was pretty damn sure that just about everyone would answer that the worst person to ever exist was Hitler.Â
[/quote]
Yeah, any dummy off the street will pick Hitler given the choice of the two (or even anyone else on the list). Fortunately, our community here is a little more knowledgeable than the general populace. As noted by IL.
Not that you cannot make a damn good case for Hitler, because you can and you are. However, if a life is a life and each is equal, why not a communist like Stalin who both killed in his own and supported other regimes/governments to do the same? If you had to ask yourself who was more successful, you would pick Stalin. He lived longer, likely killed more, and perpetuated the culture of death and crushing of freedom in communism the world round. Hitler was less evil if only for the fact that he did not live to see his dream succeed. Stalin did, and we continue to struggle with the mess he made today. Hitler’s World War II has been cleaned up for some time now.
