At the end of any turn where Paris falls to the Axis, do the following:
(1) For each territory and sea zone containing French pieces, roll a die.
(2) On a result of 1-3, the territory and units stay aligned with the Allies, as Free French.
(3) On a result of 4-6, the territory and units become pro-Axis neutrals, the Vichy French.
Use German counters to indicate which units and territories are Vichy (these behave just as pro-Axis neutrals).
This is a simple way to model this historical effect. Likewise,
At the end of any turn where Rome falls to the Allies, do the following:
(1) For each territory and sea zone containing Italian pieces, roll a die.
(2) On a result of 1-3, the territory and units stay aligned with the Axis, as the Italian Socialist Republic.
(3) On a result of 4-6, the territory and units become pro-Allied neutrals, the Co-Belligerent Italian forces.
Use US counters to indicate which units and territories are Co-Belligerent (these behave just as pro-Allied neutrals).
If desired, you could extend this as a general house rule to apply to all powers that lose their capitals.
I predict that it would result in some very interesting game-states…
Happy home-brewing, M_I_R
The Italy idea is actually very interesting since it did happen. Very original.
I like it, have you tried it? How id it effect the game?
Well, the historical bases for this house rule were:
A) The UK attacks on Vichy French ships in 1940, and
B) The German attacks on Italian army units in 1943.
In both cases, the fall of a capital (Paris, then Rome) precipitated a political polarization of the remaining forces, and nations were forced to attack former allies in order to preserve their positions. At the same time as some portions of the military switched to the other side, other elements decided to keep the fight going, on the same side as their previous alignment. There was a lot of confusion, and opportunism, and this is not modeled in the A&A game out-of-the-box; however, I think that by employing the pro-Axis and pro-Allied neutral rules, this effect can be easily simulated.
I think that if London, or Moscow, or Washington, or Berlin fell, the same process would occur for those great powers in the chaos that followed… Thus, I advise the application of this house rule when ANY capital falls. This shows the great importance of the capitals and the severe disruption that results when they are captured. It should also make the game go a great deal faster, as when a nation is beheaded, roughly half of its territories will immediately be gobbled up by its former enemies, or preemptively attacked by its former allies. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as it will lead to very interesting new possibilities and challenges for all players.
The rule has not yet been play-tested, but it’s intuitive enough that you can see the effect it will have on the game. Capitals don’t fall that often, and when they do it’s often late in the game and decisive. Therefore, the cases where these rules will pop up the most is with France and Italy, the powers that are most likely to go out earliest in the game, and whose downfall doesn’t necessarily mean the end of the war for their allies…
The fantasy scenario for the German player is getting the result of a pro-Axis Vichy French fleet in the Mediterranean… one the Italians could annex, or the British would be obliged to scupper. The fantasy scenario for the US player is getting a Co-Belligerent Italian army in Africa or the Middle East, to save the long trip back to America for fresh troops to transport.
Come to think of it, this rule would reward Germany taking only France, and leaving Normandy and Southern France alone, in the hopes of them turning into pro-Axis neutrals, rather than trying to take the whole country out in one gulp (as is encouraged by the OOB rules).
This might give Italy a big leg up on their turn, if Germany didn’t keep some units in reserve to exploit this possibility in their non-combat phase…
On another note, a serious rules question might be raised by this house rule:
“Let’s say that the UK has some units in Normandy when Paris falls to the Germans. When I conduct my roll for Normandy, it comes up pro-Axis. What happens?”
Well, there is a precedent for a unit that begins its turn in hostile territory – ships that are built into sea zones which contain enemy ships.
In that case, during the combat movement phase, the enemy ships must either leave the sea zone, or conduct combat with the newly-built ships.
The same principle would hold with the UK units in pro-Axis Normandy: they must choose to leave or fight at the beginning of the UK player’s next combat phase.
Oppositely, if Normandy was rolled as a territory which kept its Allied orientation, of course there would be no problem as these units would behave as they normally would in the OOB game.
Have you thought about what should happen if a capital is liberated? Do all units and territories revert back to their original owner or do they stay neutrol pro-enemy territories and units? What if they become neutral pro-you territories?
Say Rome is captured and Tobruk becomes pro-allied neutral. If Rome is liberated Tobruk could become a pro-axis neutral. All that income and those units stay immobile until an Axis unit can get them back into the infrustructure.
Thanks for the interesting case study, MacN…
However, the liberation of Rome would not change the pro-Allied status of the units in Tobruk in the example you cite.
(They would be lost forevermore to the Italians.)
The rules for the recapture of a capital are not affected by the new rules I propose regarding a capital falling.
It’s only logical and should be apply in all A&A rules.
If Italy and his capital are conquer by the Allies, all Italian units must surrender wherever they are.
_1) For each territory and sea zone containing French pieces, roll a die.
(2) On a result of 1-3, the territory and units stay aligned with the Allies, as Free French.
(3) On a result of 4-6, the territory and units become pro-Axis neutrals, the Vichy French._
This rules seems like World at War from Xeno games. I agree for the ships but I don’t agree for the territory.
After falls of France all french territory must become Vichy. Allies must attack or influence Vichy territory to regain control ex-french colonial territory.
Also France surrender only if Paris, western and eastern (Or whatever the desingation) are conquered by Germany.
Thanks for the interesting case study, MacN…
However, the liberation of Rome would not change the pro-Allied status of the units in Tobruk in the example you cite.
(They would be lost forevermore to the Italians.)
The rules for the recapture of a capital are not affected by the new rules I propose regarding a capital falling.
So if I lose Rome, and subsequently more territories due to them becoming pro-allied, the only way I can regain those territories is through military take-over. Correct? On that same note: if Germany or Japan conquers those pro-allied territories that used to be Italian after Rome has been liberated, do they become Italian as a liberated territory or do they go to the conquering nation?
if Germany or Japan conquers those pro-allied territories that used to be Italian after Rome has been liberated, do they become Italian as a liberated territory or do they go to the conquering nation?
Go to conquering nation.
if Germany or Japan conquers those pro-allied territories that used to be Italian after Rome has been liberated, do they become Italian as a liberated territory or do they go to the conquering nation?
Go to conquering nation.
Incorrect: under the rules, these territories would be restored to liberated Italy (just as Allied-controlled bits of the French empire come back under France’s control once Paris is liberated).
Incorrect: under the rules, these territories would be restored to liberated Italy (just as Allied-controlled bits of the French empire come back under France’s
OK so the rule is incorrect…If Italy is liberated by Allies, fachist goverment falls and democratic goverment take place in Italy.
If Germany reconquer Italy, Germany should take control of Italy as a puppet state.
There’s a difference between liberated and conquered. (Of course It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to make something historical).
Incorrect: under the rules, these territories would be restored to liberated Italy (just as Allied-controlled bits of the French empire come back under France’s
OK so the rule is incorrect…If Italy is liberated by Allies, fachist goverment falls and democratic goverment take place in Italy.
If Germany reconquer Italy, Germany should take control of Italy as a puppet state.
There’s a difference between liberated and conquered. (Of course It doesn’t matter if you don’t want to make something historical).
No, the rules are correct: your interpretation of them is not.
In game terms, Italy is not ‘liberated’ by the Allies, because Italy doesn’t start the game as an Allied power.
It is liberated by Germany, and like any liberated power, it reclaims its starting territories when its capital is liberated.
No, the rules are correct: your interpretation of them is not.
In game terms, Italy is not ‘liberated’ by the Allies, because Italy doesn’t start the game as an Allied power.
I understand the point but not historical at all.
You should read what happen in Italy in 1943.
You will realize that you rule don’t fit.
In summer 1943, Germany fight in Italy with some few fachist troops but the Italian population welcomed the Allied
as liberator. Mussolini was arrested and new Italins negociate with the Allies!
Most of the Italians (Including Italian commanders) were very satisfied that the fascist governments fall down.
You really believe that the Italians would have welcome as liberator if the Nazi troops reconquer Italy in 1943 or 1944?
But for the sake of game mechanics, it is important that we say that Germany “liberates” Rome. Also, for the sake of game mechanics, we can only take historical accuracy so far. Which means that if Rome is liberated by Germany, then we pretend that all the Italian territories all over the board will be perfectly happy to come back under the rule of Italy no matter the actual feeling of those people in actual history.
Italy should be liberated as an active axis player. When the allies took Rome, Germany took over North Italy and they were still fighting the allies.
Allied occupied Italy already give IPC to the allies , so indirectly support in those areas is pro allies.
Really Italy should be left alone and needs no special rules.
Vichy France is another issue.
Historical Vichy should automatically become a new strict neutral
Free French areas should be pro allies
Units for both should have a fixed setup of units representing the real capabilities of each.
All those dice rolls thing would imbalance the game, only a fixed result can be balanced and must be.
I agree with IL.
But for the sake of game mechanics, it is important that we say that Germany “liberates” Rome. Also, for the sake of game mechanics, we can only take historical accuracy so far. Which means that if Rome is liberated by Germany, then we pretend that all the Italian territories all over the board will be perfectly happy to come back under the rule of Italy no matter the actual feeling of those people in actual history.
Well it’s not difficult to fix.
Axis = conquer.
Allies = liberate. `
So let see. Turn 9, USA liberated Italy and Rome. All Italian territories and pieces all over the board shoud surrender automatically to USA.
(Remove units from the gameboard). US player is now the owner of Italian terrritories.
Turn 10, German player reconquer Italy. He’s now the new owner but not regain the control of ex-Italian territory.
But for the sake of game mechanics, it is important that we say that Germany “liberates” Rome. Also, for the sake of game mechanics, we can only take historical accuracy so far. Which means that if Rome is liberated by Germany, then we pretend that all the Italian territories all over the board will be perfectly happy to come back under the rule of Italy no matter the actual feeling of those people in actual history.
Exactly. Thank you, sir.
@Imperious:
All those dice rolls thing would imbalance the game, only a fixed result can be balanced and must be.
Hmm… We are both talking about Axis and Allies, right?
