German strategy for newest Alpha +3 setup

[Private Ed]

In the newest setup, Germany is no longer assured a high probability Sea Lion attempt. So I’m wondering what the best strategy is now for Germany. I’m guessing it is a Barbarossa scenario, but I’m not sure. What have you found?

To throw in another twist, I plan on using an aggressive Japan strategy that will bring the US in to the war in round 1. I’ve always wanted to try this approach and today I will test this high risk/high reward strategy. I’m guessing it will simply be an Allied blowout in three hours, but if it turns out not to be then it might change my horribly bad win/loss ratio going forward.

[techroll42]

A J1 move will end the game, no doubt about it. You just can’t hit enough with enough. And then in Europe Germany will have made no headway when UK is getting reinforcements from US…

[Private Ed]

Have you tried a J1 move?

[knp7765]

I’ve tried a J1 attack on everyone (except Russia). While Japan does make some modest gains at first, it turned out being a disaster for the Axis, and Japan in particular. With the USA entering the war Round 1 with so much more money to spend and better building potential, Japan just couldn’t keep up with the large and growing US Navy plus keep their offensives on the mainland and southwest Pacific going, especially with meddling problems from ANZAC, the Brits and Chinese. Russia made things worse by waiting until just the right time and pouring over the Amur/Manchuria/Korea border.

I agree with you on the latest setup. While I think Sealion is still possible, it seems to me like this setup is designed to almost force Germany into Barbarossa and forget any other plan. The rule where Russia can declare war when London falls sure doesn’t help either. The thing I don’t like about Sealion is Germany has to commit so much to it that they are really weak on the Eastern Front. A lot of people say you can simply take the transports used to invade England and use them to amphibious assault Leningrad, but I think they make it sound much easier than it really is.
Also, the new setup makes it much harder to sink the Royal Navy, almost impossible in 1 round now.

[Rhey]

@knp7765:

I’ve tried a J1 attack on everyone (except Russia). While Japan does make some modest gains at first, it turned out being a disaster for the Axis, and Japan in particular. With the USA entering the war Round 1 with so much more money to spend and better building potential, Japan just couldn’t keep up with the large and growing US Navy plus keep their offensives on the mainland and southwest Pacific going, especially with meddling problems from ANZAC, the Brits and Chinese. Russia made things worse by waiting until just the right time and pouring over the Amur/Manchuria/Korea border.

I agree with you on the latest setup. While I think Sealion is still possible, it seems to me like this setup is designed to almost force Germany into Barbarossa and forget any other plan. The rule where Russia can declare war when London falls sure doesn’t help either. The thing I don’t like about Sealion is Germany has to commit so much to it that they are really weak on the Eastern Front. A lot of people say you can simply take the transports used to invade England and use them to amphibious assault Leningrad, but I think they make it sound much easier than it really is.
Also, the new setup makes it much harder to sink the Royal Navy, almost impossible in 1 round now.

This is right on. Going Sealion with Germany could keep your forces stuck too long in Europe just trying to regroup and push back the Russians (especially because the Russians can attack INSTANTLY after Sea Lion, wich indeed, left ur eastern forces a lot weaker).

I’ve already won a game while using Sea Lion so I’m not saying it’s impossible. It shifted the US attention on getting London back and I just used Germany and Italy in a defensive role so Japan could have it’s way in the Pacific. But the war in Europe looked like a static world war 1.

I also think a J1 move in global is disastrous (in pacific1940 I’d say an all out attack by Japan on J1 against everyone is a MUST in order to win the game, but in gobal… no). It gets the US too soon in the war and can outproduce anyone as Germany, Japan and Italy still have to build up their economy. Don’t forget that in global you’re also fighting the Russians.

[KillOFzee]

I have created a detailed format that I like to use as Germany, and it is primarily a G4 Barbarossa invasion based strategy.

G1: Purchase: 1 Aircraft carrier, 1 Destroyer, 1 sub
France: 7 inf, 3 art, 2 mech, 4 armor, 1 tac
S. France: 2 mech, 2 arm
Yugo: All German land units in range, plus 1 fight from Romania
SZ 110: 2 fights, 2 tacs, 2 strats, 2 subs
SZ 111: 2 fights, 2 tacs, 2 subs
SZ 106: 1 sub
Annex Norway: 1 inf, 1 art via transport
ANnex Bulgaria: 1 inf
Collect: 71

This first turn layout is my optimal choice for Euro axis strategy. By taking Southern France, you acquire a factory in the med, which offsets the Italians not taking S. France or Yugo. The two seazone attacks are 100% victory if UK does not scramble, and 80% plus if UK scrambles everything in both. At the end of your turn, you move a sizable force to the Eastern Front, whilst having 1 battle ship, 1 aircraft carrier (fully loaded), 1 cruiser, 1 destroyer, and 1 sub to protect your coast. This is also a perfect feign for sealion.

The Italian turn varies too much on UKs moves, but in general, I will attack Greece using my transports that survived, which allows them to remain under Italian air cover.

G2: Purchases: 5 inf, 5 art, 1 strat, 1 minor IC in Romania, 2 subs
Normandy/Bordeaux: Whatever Germans are left in France
Reinforce Finland: 1 inf, 1 art via transport
Move from Yugo to Romania
Collect: 54 IPCs

Granted, G2 all depends on what UK did. If they did not defend England properly, i will buy 6-7 transports and take it next turn. I like the 1:1 inf:art ratio here because I am transporting artillery from Poland to Finland, leaving me with little artillery in Poland. Again, this whole turn is variable, but generally, UK will shore up defenses in England and I will follow the moves listed above. If I don’t want to wait for G4 attack, I won’t build the factory.

As for Japan, a J2 or J3 attack is prime, preferably the latter, as my Germany strategies assumes a G4 attack on Russia.

Everything after this is to variable, other than a constant supply line of 6 infantry and 4 artillery being sent to Russia (plus 2 inf, 1 art in Romania).

[Degrasse]

Some picking at your strategy:

A.  You won’t always get 71 as the two french ships in sea zone 93 are eligible to convoy raid your income from southern France.

B.  Italy has a much smaller economy, would the four infantry from activating Bulgaria be better off as Italian?

C.  Attacking sea zones 111, 109, and 106 and leaving 110 alone is more commonly seen.  Your sz 106 attack is weak as well as the attack on sz 111.  The odds calculator is showing that scrambling the scotland fighter will likely shift your losses from two submarines to two subs and two fighters but scrambling 3 fighters from London only causes equal losses in German aircraft.

D.  I like the move of consolidating the Italian fleet in sea zone 97 to invade Greece.

E.  I would change the second turn build to include 2 to 5 transports, replacing the strat, minor, and submarines.  Plopped in sea zone 112, those  transports could go a lot of interesting places on turn 3.

[Spendo02]

Italy taking Bulgaria is nice and all, but its on the extreme opposite front you really want those units on.  I prefer Strafing Yugo with Hungary, Romania, S.Germany and “retreating” to Romania and then NCM a single Inf into Bulgaria.  This sets up a weakened Yugo for I1.  You can use the TT on I1 to move Inf first into Yugo to have 6 Inf, 2 Tanks giving Italy Yugo.

Do the same thing on G2 against Greece, blitzing the tanks through Bulgaria and sending in the 5 Inf from Bulgaria.  Hit for a round then retreat to Bulgaria.  Your tanks are then setup to join the rest of your tanks from France by meeting up G3 in E.Poland. In both cases you weaken the national units, but hand the IPC over to Italy as they will need it to address a US force moving towards the Med.

I also like to give the Italians S.France with the 2 Art, 2 Inf from N.Italy.  Net Net the Italians are up 7 IPC for a good while by the end of I2 which translates to at least 3-4 rounds of IPC from those territories.  That 21-28 IPC over that time is increasingly valuable to their weak 10 IPC starting value.

I send the Germans like this in the SZ’s:  3 Tac/Ftr, 2 SS to SZ110.  I opt to lose Ftr because the Tac pair better on G3/G4 with the 9 starting Arm Germany will be using in Moscow.  They are also cheaper to replace and the threat of attacks on Germany are minimal (the real value of Ftr) until later in the game.  I then send 1 Ftr/Tac, 2 Bombers, my BB and 2 SS into SZ111.  Generally I end up with 3 Ftr, 4 Tac 2 Bomber remaining in the 3 times I’ve done this so far.  My BB usually ends up being tipped and subject to a UK counter on UK1 from SZ91, SZ109 and a Bomber from London.  Sometimes a SS survives somewhere in there, but my dice rolls have been better than average.

I also prefer trading German Ftr for UK Ftr.  Granted you never want to give up your aircraft, but it is much harder for London to survive if it scrambles its Ftrs because they just can’t replace them nearly as easily as the Germans can before G3 Sea Lion.  Trading 20-30 IPC to keep the UK on London until probably G5 is worth the investment.  It is PARTICULARLY annoying to have UK Ftr en masse around once the US starts landing in Normandy because the UK can just land all its Ftr on top of the ground units that survived, plus land units of its own.  I’d rather the UK have 2-3 Ftr instead of 5-7.

I always go after the UK fleet if it lives in the Med, but I1 is always a Ftr purchase and Germany always flies that Ftr that can’t reach the SZ down to Rome so I have 3 Ftr scrambling on I1 if the UK decides to attack SZ97.  I’m happier removing the UK fleet in the Med so it cannot reinforce London or block me from Egypt.  Further, I don’t want a threat against Rome so I can utilize the starting 6 Inf there.  By removing the UK fleet, that threat is generally eliminated.

You can still pull of a Sea Lion with 8 TT if the UK doesn’t go full defensive.  Especially if you SBR London on G2 - which I recommend regardless of what you plan to do.  Those Bombers are just fluff on G2 for wherever you attack and are better put to use with escorts (for any remaining Ftr in the UK) and “take away” IPC from London.  Worst case scenario if two bombers get through is 6 IPC loss for UK although the average is going to be closer to 10 or 11 IPC.

[Guest]

G4 is way too late.  The Soviet Red Army is too strong by then.

[techroll42]

G2 or G3 is when u Barbarossa or the Reds stuff u.

[Alsch91]

@techroll42:

G2 or G3 is when u Barbarossa or the Reds stuff u.

@Vance:

G4 is way too late.  The Soviet Red Army is too strong by then.

……Unless Germany is building land forces over G2 and G3.
And Germany has more money than Russia to do it.

Why in the world would a G4 Barbarossa not be viable?  I’ve done several times.
It’s very nice because it gives you the time to shore up everything in the West and get the Italians in position for can openers.

Russia has 37 IPCs a turn to buy land forces.
Germany will have 70 and 51 IPCs for two turns to do so.
And Germany starts off with more.
Of course G4 Barbarossa is possible.

[techroll42]

Yes, but 2 defending 2’s (2 inf.) are 1 cheaper than 2 attacking 2’s (inf+art). Then you’ve got to actually build for the west, and build mech/armor/Luftwaffe? for the east.

Sure, you’ll have more but they’ll be able to take a lot more with them…

[Alsch91]

Um yes.  Offense costs more than defense.
That applies to every aspect of the game.

@techroll42:

Sure, you’ll have more but they’ll be able to take a lot more with them…

Yeah.  Okay.  And?
Germany still has more either way.

[Guest]

what is g2 and g3

[techroll42]

(letter)(number) is a player’s certain turn.

G=Germany
J=Japan
R=Russia
UK=UK
US=US
And the others you usually don’t talk about

Then the number is the round number, so when Germany attacks Russia on their 3rd turn, that’s a G3 Barbarossa

[suprise attack]

G3 is when I like to hit Russia, along with a sea lion look build early,  hit them both on 3. Also have Italy back up Germany in the east. Also get Italy into the Middle East A.S.A.P for the bonus money and presure on India and Russia

[KillOFzee]

@Spendo02:

I also prefer trading German Ftr for UK Ftr.  Granted you never want to give up your aircraft, but it is much harder for London to survive if it scrambles its Ftrs because they just can’t replace them nearly as easily as the Germans can before G3 Sea Lion.  Trading 20-30 IPC to keep the UK on London until probably G5 is worth the investment.  It is PARTICULARLY annoying to have UK Ftr en masse around once the US starts landing in Normandy because the UK can just land all its Ftr on top of the ground units that survived, plus land units of its own.  I’d rather the UK have 2-3 Ftr instead of 5-7.

I agree with this strategy, and it is why I hit all of the UK seazones at once. I would rather destroy their navy which is harder to replace than protect 2 of my own planes. Also, if the UK does scramble, it puts them at a severe disadvantage during sea-lion which will be that much easier.

Now that I look at it, if the Germans are going to take Bulgaria, than they won’t need the factory on G2. So, it is probably better to give the Italians those infantry.

@Vance:

G4 is way too late.  The Soviet Red Army is too strong by then.

Like Alsch said, G4 is perfectly viable, especially if you build a minor IC in Romania. You can move more men along the eastern front with G4, most importantly the large army mobilized with the money from G2

[Guest]

oh ok