How likely could America fall if all the Axis work together?

[Jennifer]

I never did it for a few reasons:

1)  England can build units in Canada to at least help.
2)  What is China, India, Australia and Russia doing to Japan while you are sending 3 rounds of income to America?
3)  Felt cheesy, like Canadian Shield to me.

[special forces]

Canadian shield?

[Jennifer]

@special:

Canadian shield?

Classic game.

You set up to take E. Canada with Germany and W. Canada with Japan thus allowing Alaska to fall and not be liberated right away then sweep down and take out America.  It’s a Caspian Sub paper - really easy to block if you see it coming.

[special forces]

@Cmdr:

@special:

Canadian shield?

Classic game.

You set up to take E. Canada with Germany and W. Canada with Japan thus allowing Alaska to fall and not be liberated right away then sweep down and take out America.  It’s a Caspian Sub paper - really easy to block if you see it coming.

Ahhh, ok.

@Cmdr:

I never did it for a few reasons:

1)  England can build units in Canada to at least help.
2)  What is China, India, Australia and Russia doing to Japan while you are sending 3 rounds of income to America?
3)  Felt cheesy, like Canadian Shield to me.

As for 1 and especially 2: indeed something for Axis to worry about.

[knp7765]

This is what I was saying.  It could POSSIBLY happen, but very unlikely.  Too many things have to go right for it to work and it is an “All or nothing” gambit.  On the odd chance that it actually works, it should result in an Axis victory.  Yes, the other Allies will have some fun gobbling up Axis territories and setting them back, but once the Axis get back from their American adventure, they should be strong enough to start retaking any losses and start gaining against the other Allies, with no USA on their backs.  Particuarly Germany since they will also be getting all of America’s cash as well.  That will buy a lot of tanks and planes to use against Russia and Britain.
However, if it fails (and probably will), then the Axis are doomed.  There is no way they can recover from investing all that money and equipment in America, getting it all killed and trying to come back to their homelands to stop the other Allies which will be having a field day.  Plus, USA will still be in the game, making a bunch of money and out for revenge.

[ronrye]

So, the main problem (tell me if I’m right) is that America can block. If they do, they have an extra turn to build defensively, and this whole thing wouldn’t work.

On the Pacific side, the best case scenario for Japan 2nd turn (after they control Hawaii) is that America doesn’t block Japan from Panama. If they miss that (which a good player wouldn’t), then go for it! If they don’t, and the plan is to do all the attacking on the 4th turn, then why couldn’t Japan’s “back up plan” be to just move to a sz adjacent to sz 10, so that on turn 4 they attack W. USA?

On the Atlantic side, America has 1 ship that can block Germany (and possibly Italy if they can) from sz 91. They need two ships to block from sz 91, and presumably they would have bought another one. However, if Gib is taken G2, then Italy could bring its str bomber over I2, so that I3 it could run out and can open the way for Germany, correct?

Wouldn’t this “fix” the problems? Of course, if the American player was planning on this, it would be certain to fail, but most people don’t plan on KAF.

[ronrye]

@Cmdr:

I never did it, but that’s along the lines of what was being done.  I always meant to try it, but Larry said no, and then made it illegal to set up the attack. wink  Makes me wonder if it would have worked, or if it was along the lines of the CASPIAN SUB - Canadian Shield strategy.

How is this attack illegal? Japan is in range of Hawaii, and when you attack Hawaii, you have to declare war on America, which means you can come that close to America, right?

[theROCmonster]

Problem with that ronrye is that Germany needs 11 transports. If Germany takes Gibralter R2 how are their 10 transports going to be protected from at least 4 UK planes?

[knp7765]

Usually on G1, Germany buys an aircraft carrier.  So Germany should have a carrier with 2 fighters, a battleship and a cruiser to protect all those transports.  Also, Italy should have taken Gibraltar so there should be some German and Italian planes on the airbase that can scramble.

[theROCmonster]

The new alpha rules means there isn’t an airbase on gibralter. SO you are going to have to spread your sea units really thin.

[Jennifer]

@ronrye:

@Cmdr:

I never did it, but that’s along the lines of what was being done.  I always meant to try it, but Larry said no, and then made it illegal to set up the attack. wink  Makes me wonder if it would have worked, or if it was along the lines of the CASPIAN SUB - Canadian Shield strategy.

How is this attack illegal? Japan is in range of Hawaii, and when you attack Hawaii, you have to declare war on America, which means you can come that close to America, right?

The whole attack hinged (at least as far as I can tell) on being adjacent to SZ 10 from the south and the west.  That’s no longer a legal move - so the strategy as written is illegal.  That does not necessarily mean it cannot be reworked and made legal again.

[ronrye]

@Cmdr:

@ronrye:

@Cmdr:

I never did it, but that’s along the lines of what was being done.  I always meant to try it, but Larry said no, and then made it illegal to set up the attack. wink  Makes me wonder if it would have worked, or if it was along the lines of the CASPIAN SUB - Canadian Shield strategy.

How is this attack illegal? Japan is in range of Hawaii, and when you attack Hawaii, you have to declare war on America, which means you can come that close to America, right?

The whole attack hinged (at least as far as I can tell) on being adjacent to SZ 10 from the south and the west.  That’s no longer a legal move - so the strategy as written is illegal.  That does not necessarily mean it cannot be reworked and made legal again.

There’s a rule that says Japan can’t be adjacent to sz 10 even when they are at war with America?

[ronrye]

@theROCmonster:

Problem with that ronrye is that Germany needs 11 transports. If Germany takes Gibralter R2 how are their 10 transports going to be protected from at least 4 UK planes?

That is a good point, but if the Axis really are bent on this strategy, then it (hopefully) wouldn’t be too much to have Italy use its tac and ftr on a suicide mission to bring down a couple of UK’s planes.

[Jennifer]

@ronrye:

@Cmdr:

@ronrye:

@Cmdr:

I never did it, but that’s along the lines of what was being done.  I always meant to try it, but Larry said no, and then made it illegal to set up the attack. wink  Makes me wonder if it would have worked, or if it was along the lines of the CASPIAN SUB - Canadian Shield strategy.

How is this attack illegal? Japan is in range of Hawaii, and when you attack Hawaii, you have to declare war on America, which means you can come that close to America, right?

The whole attack hinged (at least as far as I can tell) on being adjacent to SZ 10 from the south and the west.  That’s no longer a legal move - so the strategy as written is illegal.  That does not necessarily mean it cannot be reworked and made legal again.

There’s a rule that says Japan can’t be adjacent to sz 10 even when they are at war with America?

If America’s at war, then they have Major Complexes and you ruin the other side of the strategy: That America cannot build enough units to stop the invasions.

Basically, as far as I can tell, Kill America First as written for Alpha +2 is dead in Alpha +3.  You needed the following really:
1)  To be adjacent to the Americans
2)  To be at peace with the Americans
3)  To have strikes set up for Japan in W. USA, Italy in C. USA and Germany in E. USA (if one was to fail, then Germany/Italy in C. USA was the better option.)

Without them, well…as I said I never used this strategy.

[Spendo02]

It all comes down to what US purchases on its first three turns.  Unfortunately, the US3 purchase is unknown to Germany and Germany has to decide on its third turn to Sealion London or stage off Gibraltar for a KAF.

US places all units in the Pacific on US1 and US2, the door is open for KAF.  US3 will only be able to field at best an AC with 2 fighters, 1 Cruiser and a scrambling Ftr in response to a staging off Gibraltar and will lose to an Italy3 and Germany4 strike on SZ101 and Eastern US.  US can misplay this further by not flying fighters from the Pacific to Eastern US on US3 and make it easier to pull off.

If US Places an AC on US1, a Ftr on US2, and either 2 BB + 1 Ftr or an AC + 2 Ftr on US3 in SZ101, your in for a fight but its still winnable with 6 or so Trn with Inf/Art pairs.  I’d say 75-25 in favor of the Axis.

If US Places an AC on US1, a Ftr on US2, places 3 inf on Eastern US on US3 and flies 2 fighters from the Pacific into Eastern US on US3 you are going to need 9-10 pairs of Inf/Art landing to take Eastern US and its around 60-40 in favor of the Axis.

US can play blocker with its cruiser, but the Italian fleet can clear that out for the G4 landing.  However the German fleet is going to have to beef up a bit to handle multiple fighters and capital ships which = less transports.

Biggest issue is that G3 has no idea what US3 is going to see and do and it gives up a Sealion on London to try to pull it off.  Relying on misplays is dangerous when looking at seasoned players, and its highly unlikely you’d pull it off more than once against the same opponent(s).

[cenator01]

I don’t see Italy ever in the position, to can open for Germany. There is quite a large British fleet floating in the Mediterran sea. Depending on what i have read on sea-lion in alpha+3, i don’ think the Italian fleet will ever leave the mediterran sea.

To set up a good sea-lion, most people are sugesting to leave sz110 (Battleship and crusier). These ships will most likely move into the mediterran sea and combine with the rest of the fleet next to Gibraltar. On turn 2, Germany sets up the real sea-lion thread. Most probably, Germany can not take Gibraltar without major losses (at least 2 transports, if UK put a tank, a Infantry and a fighter on Gibraltar).
Germany will have to fight its way through the british Navy (or Italy, but they won’t win this fight), leaving them with not enough ships to break through any decent US Navy.

I don’t think this is ever doable, except against an very, very unexperienced player.

[special forces]

@cenator01:

I don’t see Italy ever in the position, to can open for Germany. There is quite a large British fleet floating in the Mediterran sea. Depending on what i have read on sea-lion in alpha+3, i don’ think the Italian fleet will ever leave the mediterran sea.

To set up a good sea-lion, most people are sugesting to leave sz110 (Battleship and crusier). These ships will most likely move into the mediterran sea and combine with the rest of the fleet next to Gibraltar. On turn 2, Germany sets up the real sea-lion thread. Most probably, Germany can not take Gibraltar without major losses (at least 2 transports, if UK put a tank, a Infantry and a fighter on Gibraltar).
Germany will have to fight its way through the british Navy (or Italy, but they won’t win this fight), leaving them with not enough ships to break through any decent US Navy.

I don’t think this is ever doable, except against an very, very unexperienced player.

And if Germany doesn’t attack SZ110, those UK ships might just stay there (backed up by scramblers), which would block the whole German sea-route.

[Jennifer]

@cenator01:

I don’t see Italy ever in the position, to can open for Germany. There is quite a large British fleet floating in the Mediterran sea. Depending on what i have read on sea-lion in alpha+3, i don’ think the Italian fleet will ever leave the mediterran sea.

To set up a good sea-lion, most people are sugesting to leave sz110 (Battleship and crusier). These ships will most likely move into the mediterran sea and combine with the rest of the fleet next to Gibraltar. On turn 2, Germany sets up the real sea-lion thread. Most probably, Germany can not take Gibraltar without major losses (at least 2 transports, if UK put a tank, a Infantry and a fighter on Gibraltar).
Germany will have to fight its way through the british Navy (or Italy, but they won’t win this fight), leaving them with not enough ships to break through any decent US Navy.

I don’t think this is ever doable, except against an very, very unexperienced player.

Wait…England cannot move again until after Germany - so why wouldn’t Italy be able to can open?

As for KAF, on Round 3 you can have your fleet off the coast of Gibraltar.  Italy’s fighters could, theoretically, pop the American destroyer in the way and allow the Germans to land up to 26 units somewhere in N. America.  As I said, I never actaully did this, I am just trying to remember how it went.

Lastly with blockers for Japan (due to the change in the rules) America should get at least 1 full round of 10 Unit Build ability in W. USA.

[Funcioneta]

I usually don’t talk about DLC  :-P versions, but if I’m right, Japan still wins taking 6 VCs, true? If so, taking WUSA will mean automatic Axis victory in most cases (Tokio, Shangai, Manila, Hong Kong, Honoluly, San Francisco). So, holding Whashington in this scenario is irrelevant. Even if Shangai or Hong Kong manage to survive due chinamen spamming (I doubt), there is no way that Sydney can hold without yankee reinforcements, so in best of cases, is a victory for Axis in turn 6-8.

You could aim even Whashington instead Sydney… but I guess that would be more difficult because of the rule that prevents from building mayor ICs at enemy’s land (I find that a unnecesary rule, but that’s matter for another thread). A Alaska and Mexico minor ICs could aid, I guess …

[knp7765]

What I was thinking of for Japan was for them to build up transports and inf/art right in SZ 6/Japan while also staging their warships there.  With the naval base, they can get to Alaska/British Columbia in one move.  Of course, Japanese troops landing in N America will bring the USA into the war but they will only have 1 turn with a Major Complex on WUSA before the Japanese force in British Columbia attacks.

Now, I understand that the US could place a blocker, but they wouldn’t necessarily.  Usually the US wants to mass their fleet in either SZ 10 or off of Hawaii to be ready to strike at the Japanese.  USA doesn’t know that the Japanese are planning to head east to America.  All that buildup could just as easily be getting ready to go down and take the DEI or even attack Australia.  I guess you could say that USA would send a ship up by Alaska to prevent Japan hitting British Columbia as a preventative move.  Perhaps some players always do that, but I usually don’t see it happening unless USA catches on to what Japan is doing.