The Missing Mechanized Unit: Assault Guns

[General 6 Stars]

I’m using the Hummel from HBG ( haven’t looked for different one yet ) and is only available through Weapons development Tech starting on turn 7. But if you draw a card and says free tech roll during the first 6 turns, then you have a chance to get it if you roll a 6.

[crusaderiv]

I think crusader is just giving stats on how his group uses them. Like I said people will use custom units in various ways. He has some provenance in using the Stug III as an infantry support model. Some had “soft target” guns suited to infantry support while others were equipped  with high velocity guns for taking out armor.

Yes exactly. Our game begin in 1939 so we start the game with the early Stug.

However, do you have an idea which kind of sculpt replica suits Germany for the Tank Destroyer, if you exclude the Stug III G?
Is their another TD in the German army?

Yes. The Jagdpanzer series like the Marder/Hetzer.

For the german tank destroyer I choose the Elephant from CinC! (I love that beast)!!!
And SU 100 for the Russian.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is a more A&A paradigm rules version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD):

Mechanized Artillery (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can only blitz when paired to a Tank.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mech Infantry
Tank Hunter as a tank support ability: Get +1A/D when paired to a Tank.

This unit can give and get both bonus as Inf support & Tank support when teamed with both MI and Tk on attack.

I think it could be viable and balance. I will try to show it in my next post.

[baron Münchhausen]

The core of a ground battle is between A@3 vs D@2 unit.
With a Battlecalc, you get 50-50% chance of winning when 9 units @3 fight 11 units @2.
This means that a real balance cost of unit should be:
1 unit A3D3 should cost 5.5 IPCs and 1 unit A2D2 should cost 4.5 IPCs.

That explain why Tank moving 2 at 5 IPCs was a bit OverPowered vs other units like Art at 4 IPCs with M1.

Tank A3D3M2C6 compared to a A2D2M2C5 unit seems almost correct since both have a +.5 IPC over the balance level of 5.5  vs 4.5.

Now, about a MechArt A2D2M2C5 unit getting +1 A/D when paired to a Tank, it will be straight on the mark:
A6D6M2**C11 for 2 units, which is A3D3M2C5.5 for 1 unit**.
2 Tanks A6D6M2C12 are actually 1 IPC over the mark and this slight unbalancing effect increase of .5 IPC with each additional Tank.

You can see how good on defense is an Inf A1D2C3 being 1.5 under the line.
Even the MechInf is still .5 below the cost on defense.
(Not considering the offence, however. Which makes them less OP vs cost of A2D2 or A3D3.)

When comparing 2 units vs 2 units it is easier to see the slight unbalance:
1MI+1Art= A4 D4 C8 vs 2 Tk A6 D6 C12
MI+Art should cost 9 and 2 Tk, 11 so it is a direct -2 IPCs in favor of MI+Art.

1 MechI+1MechArt A2 D2 M2 C5= A4 D4 M2 C9, it is right on the 4.5 IPCs/ A2 D2 unit.

1 MechArt A2 D2 M2 C5 getting +1 A/D with Tk = A6 D6 M2 C11, it is right on the 5.5 IPC/ A3 D3 unit.

Do you see now how this sole MechArt (doing both Assault Gun role) with the Tank Support could be an interesting and balance unit between MechInf C4 and Tank C6. For those who just want to add a single new sculpt on the board.
It will increase the interest for both MechInf and Tank buying.
Because, to optimize your M2 units, you get the best when paired.
MI+MArt= 8 A/D pts for 9 IPCs. -1
MArt+Tk= 12 A/D pts for 11 IPCs. +1
MI+MArt+Tk= 16 pts for 15 IPCs. +1

compared to M1 pairing:
2Inf= 6 A/D pts for 6 IPCs. Even.
Inf+Art= 8 A/D pts for 7 IPCs. +1
MI+Art= 8 A/D pts for 8 IPCs. Even.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is a much more A&A paradigm rules version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD) that I revised from my previous post:

MECHANIZED ARTILLERY (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can blitz when at least a Tank is present in a group of units.
It means that any number of Mechanized Artillery can blitz when a Tank is blitzing. In addition, this Tank can be already paired to a Mechanized Infantry while blitzing.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mechanized Infantry.
Tank Hunter as a Tank Support ability: Get +1A/D when paired to a Tank.

This unit on attack cannot give and get both bonus as Inf support & Tank support when teamed up with both MI and Tk.
You must choose which bonus is use, and can change during the battle round, switching from one to the other according to which unit the MechArt is paired to.

I think it could be better balance and nearer A&A pairing bonus.

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Some may prefer give +1 on Defense only when paired to a Tank but this unit will be much more appealing if it gets +1A also.

I think it will be nearer the historical records about all kind of Mechanized Artillery.
Germany for instance built a lot of them and even much more than Tanks during WWII, specially StuGIII type.
And during the game, it will be a way to get an optimized built by having a Mech Art paired to an already existing Tank. It will follow the same progression than WWII, this unit getting more and more popular as the war evolved.

In itself it will be weaker (A2D2C5) but cheaper than medium Tank (A3D3C6).

But was useful for both Inf and Tank support.
And dangerous against Tank, hence gaining the bonus on A/D making them as valuable than a reg Tank but keeping the need to buy Tank to get Mechanized Artillery such a useful unit on offense and defense.

I also learned that during WWII both Artillery division (supporting Infantry) and Panzer division were having struggle with the Army Chief Command over StuG being part of their unit instead of the other.

Even this aspect can be depicted by the dual bonus for being paired to Inf and MechInf or with Tank.

[baron Münchhausen]

Here is an updated post in which I tried to summarize all ideas given on this thread and some elsewhere about three types of unit:
1-Self-Propelled Artillery (SPA). Mostly mobile indirect fire unit.
2-Self-Propelled Gun (SPG) also known as Tank Destroyer (TD). Mostly mobile direct fire unit.
3-Mechanized Artillery (which is essentially 1 A&A unit doing both functions above and put between Mech Inf and Tank) for those who don’t want to split hairs too much.

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Hope you find yours HR/customized units inside this post and find this post useful to make your mind upon which stats you will give to your customized units.
If yours not already their, just let me know.

They are put in a relative order of strength.
You will discover that TD is the units which get the most variations stats HR about how to used it.

Thanks for sharing everybody.

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1- SPA
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with tank
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with tank or with Mech Inf
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, First Strike Salvo @2 Off/Def
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, Get A3, 1st rnd if ennemy’s tank present.
A2D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, Attack A3 on 1st rnd A3D2M2C5 Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank.
A4D3M2C8 On a “1” roll, ennemy lost 1 non-infantry unit.

2- SPG / TD
A1D1M2C5, blitz with Tank, First Strike Salvo Off/Def each rnd on SPA or Tk. TD can be hit but not preemptive.
A1D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk, get +1A when paired with a Tank.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, Support 1 Infantry or 1 Mech +1D.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on Def: a “1”&“2” rolled destroyed Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on Def: a “1”&“2” rolled destroyed SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” or “2” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” on attack or “1” & “2” on defense rolled destroyed Tk first, then TD, then SPA, then MI, in that order.
A2D3M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 non Infantry unit.
A2D3M2C5, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 ground unit of your choice.
A2D3M2C5, can blitz, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D3M2C5, can blitz, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A3D1M2C5, blitz with Tank, give +1A/D to 1 light Tank A2D1M2C4.
A3D2M2C5, can blitz, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C6, blitz with Tank, on a “1”&“2” rolled destroyed Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D3M2C6, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D3M2C6, blitz with Tank, target directly 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A3D3M2C6, blitz with tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.
A2D2M2C6, blitz with Tank, +1A/D when enemy’s Tk present, on a hit destroy directly Tk.
A3D4M1C7, (Heavy TD) on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 SPA, TD or Tk.
A3D3M2C7, blitz with Tank, First Strike Salvo Off/Def each rnd on SPA or Tk. TD can be hit but not preemptive.
A4D3M2C7, blitz with tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech, SPA, TD or Tk.

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3- Mechanized Artillery (Combining SPA, SPG, TD in 1 unit)
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, Attack A3 on 1st rnd, if enemy’s Tank present
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech: Inf or MI get +1A when paired 1:1, or Support Tank get +1A/D when paired to a Tank 1:1, blitz when a Tank is present, don’t need to be paired with.
A2D1M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, on defense act as a preemptive AA on 1:1 against Tank.
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank or a Mech Inf, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech Art or Tk
A2D2M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, on a “1” rolled destroyed 1 Mech Inf, Mech Art or Tk
A2D3M2C5, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank
A3D3M2C6, Support Infantry and Mech +1A, blitz with Tank, act as a preemptive AA @1 against Tank

[knp7765]

@crusaderiv:

For the german tank destroyer I choose the Elephant from CinC! (I love that beast)!!!
And SU 100 for the Russian.

I have seen this CinC referenced before. Is this a new gaming pieces company that I am unaware of?

[crusaderiv]

I have seen this CinC referenced before. Is this a new gaming pieces company that I am unaware of?

They’re on the market for many years.
The pieces are in lead. (Prices are cheaper).
I bought some tanks and armored vehicles from CinC 10 years ago.
Details are good but the canon is fragile….so I fixed it with brass parts.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

cost  move attack defend
Infantry tank (Stug III) 4    1  2   2 (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat if mixed with a Stug).

Hi CrusaderIV,
Where is the difference between an Artillery unit and what you put as an Infantry tank?
Both move 1 space only!
Is it a mistake?

Is it possible that your “Infantry Tank” is just another name for a Self-Propelled Artillery (SPA) which many put at A2D2M2C5 and +1A to a paired Infantry?

You write: (Infantry attack 2 in the first round of combat ,
is it only for the first round?
If it is the case, your Infantry tank is a lot weaker than a regular Artillery: A2D2M1C4, because the +1 bonus have no limits in time.
I want to understand what you meant to be able to add it inside my summary.

Thanks for your reply,

[crusaderiv]

You’re right, move 1 is a typo error. Move =2.
Yes… infantry attack at 2 in the first round only.

I also introduced SS Panzer in my game.
Move attack defend limit
1   4     5         3.          (Cannot retreat)

I used the Panther to represented the SS unit.
Movement 1 because the Panther didn’t have long range.

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

You’re right, move 1 is a typo error. Move =2.
Yes… infantry attack at 2 in the first round only.

I also introduced SS Panzer in my game.
Move attack defend limit
1     4 5         3.  (Cannot retreat)

I used the Panther to represented the SS unit.
Movement 1 because the Panther didn’t have long range.

Thanks.
Now it makes sense. Let me rephrase it as I see it:
Infantry Tank (SPA) A2D2M2C4 gives on first round +1A to a paired Infantry only, not MechInf. Can blitz when paired to a Tank, as MechInf does.

Is it correct?

By the way, what is the cost of your SS Panzer?

[knp7765]

@crusaderiv:

I have seen this CinC referenced before. Is this a new gaming pieces company that I am unaware of?

They’re on the market for many years.
The pieces are in lead. (Prices are cheaper).
I bought some tanks and armored vehicles from CinC 10 years ago.
Details are good but the canon is fragile….so I fixed it with brass parts.

I can’t seem to find them online. I even tried Google search. Are they still in business?
You wouldn’t be talking about GHQ, would you? I know that place. They got a pretty good selection of stuff. They even have decal sheets for the tiny tanks.

[CWO Marc]

@knp7765:

I can’t seem to find them online. I even tried Google search. Are they still in business?

http://www.pfc-cinc.com/front_page.html

[General 6 Stars]

Ha Ha, you got to watch Crusaderiv spelling.  C in C  Very sweet site Crus. Last thing I wanted to see was HO Trains.  :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

[crusaderiv]

:-D C in C……or CinC or cinc…whatever… :evil:

Last thing I wanted to see was HO Trains.
Ya right…I bought for $700 of HO trains 2 weeks ago…so I have enough for awhile…

[General 6 Stars]

Crus,

Ya right…I bought for $700 of HO trains 2 weeks ago…so I have enough for awhile…

Thats why I said I don`t want to see HO Trains. The bug gotcha! :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

You still using the SS Panther in game. Because I don`t see it in my rules unless I missed it.

[crusaderiv]

You still using the SS Panther in game. Because I don`t see it in my rules unless I missed it.

LOL…you missed a lot of thing… :evil:

Yes I used the SS Panther as elite division with a limit.
I painted it black…you should see it on the gameboard…scaring!!!

[baron Münchhausen]

@crusaderiv:

You still using the SS Panther in game. Because I don`t see it in my rules unless I missed it.

LOL…you missed a lot of thing… :evil:

Yes I used the SS Panther as elite division with a limit.
I painted it black…you should see it on the gameboard…scaring!!!

By the way, what is the cost of your SS Panther unit: A4D5M1C? limited # of 3 units.
8 IPCs?

[crusaderiv]

By the way, what is the cost of your SS Panther unit: A4D5M1C? limited # of 3 units.
8 IPCs?

6 IPC.

[General 6 Stars]

It doesn’t say  SS Panther in my special units. So I’m assuming its the medium tank Panzer IV  C6/M2/A3/D3. Been using that alot in games.