Report playtest thread for TOTAL PACIFIC US strategy

[questioneer]

Jen’s already playing a bunch of games.  You need to bite the bullet and ask her.  She has given you more than enough info and reasoning- YOU NEED TO TRY THE STRATEGY THATS WHAT THIS THREAD IS FOR.

Otherwise your just TALK- BOK BOK, BOK!!!

[stormafro]

This forum amuses me greatly :)

[Defiance]

If the links were posted the entire community could playtest the US strategy. More importantly, Larry and the playtesters would be in a better position to determine what changes they should or shouldnt make. The main goal here is balance afterall.

[questioneer]

@mantlefan:

@questioneer:

Jen’s already playing a bunch of games.  You need to bite the bullet and ask her.  She has given you more than enough info and reasoning- YOU NEED TO TRY THE STRATEGY THATS WHAT THIS THREAD IS FOR.

Otherwise your just TALK- BOK BOK, BOK!!!

Lol, “More than enough info and reasoning.” It’s easy to have been supplied with more than enough reasoning when in your case, anything said remotely in support of a claim that you decided was true before any evidence was presented is “proof”

If you didn’t look at Jen’s posts with an agenda and thinking that since you already “knew” you were right, everyhting Jen said was evidence, maybe you might actually have been able to add something productive.

There’s really no point in trying to actually see if the strat is broken with you in the picture because you already decided it is broken.

IL on the other hand really doesn’t care about all that, he just wants to come after me any way he can.

Jen’s a bit more of a mystery; she seems to think it’s important to balance the game but instead of supplying all the information possible (and this would take only a few seconds t copy paste these links) to make meaningful tests, she provides general paragraphs about how these multiple games allegedly went.

I am not saying she is wrong, but the proof could be in these PBF games that still haven;t materialized for some reason. I think five minutes to post a few links is worth it if it even cuts down one unneccessary test, but I guess since IL says I’m wrong and deleted all my posts explaining myself I guess I’m wrong. I love how I’m the one accused of not adding anything when at the end of practically every post you’ve had in the last few days there is some line that’s only purpose is to insult written in all caps. It’s pretty obvious IL is still sore after thinking that I was trying to steal his Italy neutrality rule when I was agreeing that (for once) he had a good idea. Paranoid, vindictive, and incapable of logical discourse. It is an honor to have such traits in a mod that has no repurcussions for acting on whims.

Excuses, excuses, excuses- your pathetic

Like I said, still won’t just break down and play Jen will you???
If you won’t simply try the strategy- that can only mean that you are afraid that you will be wrong about everything.
Nice try saying earlier that “my ABattlemap doesn’t work”

HAWW HAWW (rolling off my seat)

I can smell the FEAR in you a thousand miles away.

[questioneer]

@Defiance:

If the links were posted the entire community could playtest the US strategy. More importantly, Larry and the playtesters would be in a better position to determine what changes they should or shouldnt make. The main goal here is balance afterall.

Did it already- a little slow on that one chief. :wink:

[Imperious Leader]

hey Mantlefan:

When you gonna play Jennifer and stop avoiding a game with her with another post about how its best that you hide from the challenge?

[ghr2]

Why does it matter that mantle plays jen?

[kcdzim]

@ghr2:

Why does it matter that mantle plays jen?

It doesn’t, especially as he’s already acknowledged that he’s probably not as seasoned a player, which means it would be a horribly flawed case study.

[Geist]

I also heard he said he can play basketball better than Michael Jordan…

[questioneer]

There will be plenty of links once you man up and play Jen.  Then she can show you the strategy first hand.  Why do you keep avoiding this???

[M K P]

I really don’t want to take sides; but should moderators take sides? Seems counterproductive.  :|

[crsluggo]

@mantlefan:

@M:

I really don’t want to take sides; but should moderators take sides? Seems counterproductive.  :|

Someone could argue that the Earth is flat and IL would take that side as long as I was on the other.

What’s counterproductive is the fact that mantlefan here continues to stall with pointless posts & silly arguments. Instead he should be playing Jen to verify this strategy. It seems that he’s afraid to be beat by a girl….

[kcdzim]

@C_Strabala:

@mantlefan:

@M:

I really don’t want to take sides; but should moderators take sides? Seems counterproductive.  :|

Someone could argue that the Earth is flat and IL would take that side as long as I was on the other.

What’s counterproductive is the fact that mantlefan here continues to stall with pointless posts & silly arguments. Instead he should be playing Jen to verify this strategy. It seems that he’s afraid to be beat by a girl….

Jebus people, he freely admitted he’s probably not as strong a player.  If that’s the case, then no, playing her doesn’t really test the strategy if the goal is to find a way to beat it.  In order to prove a strategy is broken, you need to test all possible ways to beat it, not just see the strategy in action.  It’s CLEARLY a viable strategy, no one is arguing that, but what hasn’t been proven is that it’s a unbeatable strategy.  A stronger player using a strategy against a weaker player will net a result which may simply be a false positive.  Woooo, bad data point.  Woooo, humiliated Mantlefan.  woo.

It needs to be tested.  It’s completely irrelevant whether Mantlefan plays Jen just to see it in action, because getting trounced by a stronger player doesn’t prove anything.  Ooooooo, a strategy that’s claimed to be unbeatable crushed a weaker when executed by a player who has how many tourney wins?  Wait, what does that prove?  That Jen’s a better player?  Hoorah.  We already settled that (despite the fact that she has had some seriously flawed rule interpretations in the past).  To be fair, I don’t always have a perfect grasp on the rules either, but I am NOT an experienced player by any means.

It wouldn’t hurt if Mantlefan played Jen and saw it first hand, but again, it doesn’t prove anything.  His request for links to Jen’s games where she performed it isn’t exactly asking for the moon.  She’s played dozens if not hundreds of games and only SHE would know which games were freaking relevant.  She SHOULD post the links to those games.  She SHOULD have posted them from the outset for review.  It’s a bit perverse that she hasn’t, but it still needs to be tested without them (but since she’s played it, she clearly has them, so just bloody well post the links).

And everyone else that plays on the forums SHOULD try the strategy out, but for heaven’s sake, it would be most helpful if you were evenly matched.  Besides, the only truly relevant games will be those done by players with OOOOOODLES of experience, who know exactly how to make the most efficient moves and purchases.  And, if it’s not too much to ask, they should do the utmost to make sure they aren’t breaking the rules (cough retreating from a hostile seazone during combat move and loading and moving during noncombat cough).

[special forces]

i’m with kcdzim and mantlefan on this: anyone man enough to take on Cmdr jennifer?

:-)

[Imperious Leader]

i’m with kcdzim and mantlefan on this: anyone man enough to take on Cmdr jennifer?

The point is to test out the idea. Its not important who wins, only if the result can be replicated under game conditions. That is the only truth validation.

Once a result is measured after more tests employing the same strategy, a pattern will emerge.

It is obvious that some people want to avoid this direct test and throw up paper arguments and fake walls….anything except test out the ideas.

Seems counter intuitive to any positive development of the claims both for or against Jennifer’s ideas, unless a test shows a pattern of repeated results.

[Geist]

I’d be down to test it.

[Geist]

I agree. If only there was a section of the forums for actual game play, then we could all go there and see examples of these games played out….if only.

[stormafro]

@Imperious:

…

The “user” is violating the rules repeatedly with off topic posts. I am telling him how he needs to stop and after repeating this many times allows some degree of stronger language at times.

…

In a way i am defending Jennifer from ignorant comments that are not needed unless the person who made them can at least bother to try the idea. Jennifer posted her idea how it works and its enough to test out the idea… not some 12 hour game, but a basic playtest at home…perhaps even a few turns… but nothing and still comment is asinine.

…

Mantlefans rebuttal post:

Proof? Seriously, come on. Why exactly is that logical? Where are your game reports showing that Germany can’t beat russia even when USA is going full Pac for 6-8 rounds? Where are the reports showing how the USSR has denmark even when USA goes full pac?

This is just another case of you saying whatever you want out of nowhere (or out of a meaningless or distorted context), then taking those assumptions, whether true or not, doing nothing to justify them, and then make conclusions based on them. Why should USA HAVE to split? Why? Should we then force Japan to put X IPCs into china? Why not? Should we force UK to put X IPC into Africa? Why not?

You simply SAY that Germany can’t handle Russia. Maybe you “back it up”with a few vague paragraphs. People then believe you unquestioningly and then agree that since Germany “obviously” can’t handle Russia and the UK then since Japan is doomed against 6 rounds of 100% US pac commitment, the game is unbalanced. Where is the proof? General statements don’t cut it. Play reports could help. I started one of my own, but since your comments are always so vague I don’t know if I am doing the USA strat you lightly talk about. I’m a decent USSR player but I’m not sure if I can get Denmark on a barbarossa like you can  rolleyes

If you’re so right why not post a play report? If you don’t have time how do you have time to play Axis & Allies anyways, much less have played enough times to actually have an adequate perspective to make these claims?

People supporting your argument tell others just to “read it” Why are those supporters not reading about your claims of the Soviets in Norway and Denmark? Why are they not reading about your claims of Germany needing at least 13 rounds to take Stalingrad?
Even if we did read every single word three times, even if your games were good tests, the reports are garbage because they don’t supply enough information.
Where are your reports (I’m not talking 3 paragraphs saying generally what happened) detailing every move?

…

The claims made by her are valid. She is just posting what result she discovered. He can ask you some online game result, but not having one does not mean it didn’t happen or is less credible.The apparent laziness to bother spending some time playing a game to see how it works, or to learn from it is staggering. The post in most contentious and argumentative and it was not presented in any manner to him where he should supply this form of combative subtext. As a mod, i feel the need to defend people who are attacked in this way and i choose to give him back his own medicine, since asking him to stop is of no measure.

Jen posts up a strat, with a solid - but not all encompassing - explanation.  Mantlefan had doubts and expresses them.  He then asks for data to ascertain whether or not his intuitions are correct.

I have employed this strat - and variations of it - a few time myself, prior to joining this forum.  I am currently facing this same strat as axis.  Hopefully I will have a result in by thursdayish, at which point I will post a few points. I personally would like to see a battle report, Jen’s or otherwise, to see if my movements and builds were superior or inferior.  I can’t really post up details of games I played months ago.  I recall the general thrust, but that wont add anything to this discussion.  All that I will say is that the game did generally run as Jen suggested, except that Germany and Italy were successful at gaining the middle east.  Which plays a huge part in determining the victor.  A battle report would provide evidence as to why this does not happen to Jen.

Playing out a couple of turns is insufficient.  From my experience the success is evident at maybe turn 6-8, around the time US turns its full attention to Europe - although this has happened a little earlier.  Dice and delaying moves can play a part.  Simply, it takes more then a couple of turns to determine the efficacy of this strat, and, i imagine, any strat.

To be fair.  Mantlefan should just try out the strat, as I have previously stated.  However, given that it appears that his aim is to develop a counter, possessing more information would be tremendously beneficial.

Your language, imho, was not appropriate for a mod.  Yes, when a user is stepping out of line, strong language can, and indeed should be used.  However, strong does not have to equal rude.

There is a difference.

Cheers

[Imperious Leader]

He does not know any better. If he did he would have stopped a while ago. The language is fine considering how he himself posts. Just look at how he uses words like “garbage” You don’t say anything or post anything till you got some idea of what is going on with some result. You don’t tell people what they say is garbage because they didn’t spoon feed you exact move by move. You take a more diplomatically way and ask once to provide evidence, not 50 posts if she does not have one does not mean its less valid. Once it was established she can’t offer a game you must just play one out and find out. Thats basic behavior. You don’t badger the people for a game result, you take charge and get the info yourself and withhold comments pending a result to validate the claimed result.

Most people understand this as very basic and rudimentary to discovering the truth about something. For mantlefan he must cry about the procedure, perimeters, even the epistemology of how to gain knowledge about something…anything except address a basic concept which is “have you played it out?”

If you want to discuss this further PM me. This is all off topic…

[stormafro]

@Imperious:

If you want to discuss this further PM me. This is all off topic…

Cool.