Yeah, well, that’s my ego to you. You’e right though.
Technology is a bad strategic investment
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So from a ‘balance’ standpoint, using the AA50 tech tokens might actually bring the tech back to cost effectiveness rather than making it ‘overpowered’ due to the higher incomes?
i think there definitely need to be some changes to tech. the easiest is just to use 50anniversary tech tokens. other options are to increase the power of all techs, make tech directed, or lower the cost.
i think we will need to play more games to find out. i know i will need more games to help form my opinions
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if you have 20fighters for any power(the game is probably over by then anyways) then acquiring jet fighters for that power would be very helpful. but remember not only must you get a tech breakthrough you then have to roll again to see if you get the 1 in 6 chance of hitting jet fighters.
Japan starts with “only” 14 fighters, I guess. But they have 28 aircraft to start (if you’re not playing Alpha setup).
sorry i should have mentioned that i have been playing with larrys alternate setups. last few game have been with alpha.
So jets or LRA would be pretty sweet for Japan, not to mention super subs, improved shipyards, or heavy bombers (start with 4). Sweet enough to buy a research die early in the game to try and get one.
so assuming you are playing with the original setup jets would be good, lra would be great. subs, improved shipyards, and heavy bombers are still a bad investment.
I am no moron. I completely understand the time value of money. I’m a CPA, for crying out loud. I think it was misguided for you to say that at round 128 you would have 448 IPC’s. I used 20 rounds as an example because most games will probably go at least that long.
i hope you did not think i was calling you a moron. the only thing i knew about you before this post was from your previous posts, which i think are well thought out. now i know you make good posts, have a CPA, and teach math for a living.
i was just using the 128 rounds to show that the number of rounds is less important than the having units sooner. i do now see how it looks like i was being a jerk. sorry if i offended you, it was not my intention.Guess what. I just played G2 on a global game and hit war bonds for 5 IPC’s with Germany. Yeah, I’d say I got a good deal. I’m also very gifted in Math (I’m a math teacher, for crying out loud) so you can quit telling me 30 IPC’s, 30 IPC’s, 30 IPC’s. It only costs 5 when you roll a 6. I fully understand I’m buying a 1/6 chance at hitting a random tech on a chart of 6.
i used 30ipc for my analysis as i think it is a representation of what you will pay to acquire a tech. i am not sure what other number to use, as it is so variable. as you are a very gifted math teacher i thought you would agree with me. i guess it was arrogant of me to think that my numbers were correct, but thought that someone would have pointed out where i went wrong. do i not understand the probability correctly?
Allweneed, you have clearly made up your mind and are not really listening to any opposing viewpoints. You are just shooting them down. If you don’t understand my points, that’s really no concern of mine.
i have made up my mind and posted them here. i am not opposed to listening to new ideas or admitting when i am wrong. if you read my post history you will see i have posted saying i was incorrect or thanked people for their ideas. i disagreed with most of your post and replied with why.
But I think you started this thread to make a point, and show everyone how smart you are, and to scoff at us players who actually buy tech on a regular basis, saying that we are not intellectual because we don’t understand that conventional units are a better buy. I think you’re wrong.
i started this thread to share my ideas and start conversation(is that not why we are all here?). i certainly did not want to scoff at, or put anyone down, i think you have misinterpreted my posts(this happens all the time with written word as opposed to casual speech, i guess i need to be more careful.) check out my nickname, i am not trying to put anyone down.
you succinctly pointed out the gist of my post that conventional units are a better buy and so far i still believe it. these are the types of discussions i had hoped to generate.
All that said, I would welcome a challenge from you anytime. You buy minimal or no tech, and I’ll buy my normal amount (often buying one) and we’ll see how it goes. But I warn you. I’m lucky with tech.
i sent you a personal message
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I agree that the tech system used in Classic and AAG40 (the same, just that AAG40 has two tech teams instead of one) is not a good strategic option. I remember Revised, and in my FTF group we always played with tech. It was directed tech and still tech dies were a very rare purchase, so go figure if you have fully random tech. I think that AAG40 is two steps backwards in tech … probably caused because WOTC didn’t want include tech tokens (cardboard counters cost money :-P ). The system in AA50 was the better until the date, and I’m not going to play many games of AAG40 with the OOB system: I’ll play with tech tokens or I’ll not play with tech, saving exceptions if in a multiplayer game all the people wants play without tokens
However, the tech trees in AAG40 are the best until now. They have not overpowered techs and all the techs can be usable -> with tech tokens, this would be the best system
Now, I’ll add a bit about Classic (AAG40) system. It’s a very bad strategical option, but it can be a very good tactical option if you’re losing or if you are about to fight a mayor battle: spend 5 IPCs to see if lady luck smiles you. Any other case, Classic (AAG40) tech sucks
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1 With Germany u can use France to help Sealion,
2 West Germany to reinforce Russian advance, and
3 if you build an airbase in Germany, Romania with a minor IC, or both it can help crush Russia by beefing up your stacks with 4-6 inf a round.
4 Not to mention you will crush Allied landings in most of Europe as long as you have a force in France to respond with.
5 With England you can harass Germany everywhere in the Atlantic.
6 With the US, after crushing Southern Italy you can take the Baltic States and practically assure the fall of France. 7 Russia can use it to help counterattack Germany/get troops to China to face a rowdy Japan.
8 I think the only powers to which it is useless are Japan, ANZAC, China, and Francei think you might not have the full understanding of how paratroopers work. but if you do then here is my response
1 if you are attempting sea lion you must have a unit that is not a paratrooper so you more than likely have a transport that needs to get ground units to london. paratroopers can only transport 2inf from normandy to london and be shot at by aaguns. if you are transporting units to london already you would be better off buying a transport for 7ipc, which would be cheaper than acquiring a tech and is not a gamble. after your attempt at sealion the transport has more options and flexibility.
2 paratroopers only allow movement of 3 spaces away. west germany can only move units to finland if you have to retake it, baltic states or east poland. i think you would be better off spending 2ipc to upgrade 2infantry to mech infantry instead.
3 now you are just making the mistakes even worse by sinking even more money into it
4 too late you did mention it. i do not think making this big an investment on getting 2 axis infantry to western europe a good investment. axis can easily produce units in western europe
5 see point 1
6 i believe the airbase is in northern italy. you can only move 3 spaces so you can not reach the baltic states. france is next to northern italy so you do not need paratroopers
7 you can use the airbase in moscow but you first need to have units in kaz, novo, or tim to help reach the 3 chinese territories within reach. you would be much better off just buying more units to send east.
8 hopefully now you will see that it is probably the most useless tech for all nations
1. The Aribase is situated in France, not in Normandy…
2. Paratroopers from West Germany Airbase could be used for Sea Lion too !
(3 Spaces) or am I missing something :?3. Most useless… I don´t know.
But looking at the Paratroopers rules for the first time I was slighty disapointed :oops:
Because of the “limited” use for the Player (only for combat) I thought of adding a non-combat movement Air Transoprt ability to this tech. Similar to some inoffical rules wich we played with the 2nd edition. But there it wasn´t a tech, every Bomber could be used for paratroopers and transport. -
Tech is fun. That’s the point. Like playing the lottery. And I recall it is an OPTIONAL rule?
now that is logic that i can agree with. we play these games to have fun, and if you find rolling for tech fun then you should role tech.
i am not saying to not use the optional rule of tech. i am saying they are a bad strategic investment. i would welcome my opponent to roll for tech in my games. but i think it is better to just houserule a fix like using the 50anniversary tech token rules.
Last time I played, the US player rolled for tech the first three rounds. Got Radar, Long range, Heavy bombers. Needless to say, that proved to be quite a problem for me as the Axis for the remainder of the game. Not saying you’re wrong, but I think his radar shot down more of my planes, his aircraft could fly from US to Normandy, and his heavy bombers hit every time and did more strategic damage.
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I agree, since I prefer strategies that minimize luck as best as one strategy can. And tech rolls by there very nature require luck to be “more” useful or at least more “affordable”.
I think people would agree that an extremely expensive breakthrough is more harmful then useful. Imagine spending 10 ipcs a round for 5 rounds and not having a breakthrough. For Germany, that is like choosing to not collect 2 National Objectives until turn 6. Lets say they do that and get 3 breakthroughs over those 5 rounds, I’d still believe they were behind in the piece count vs Russia. Give them super subs, heavy bombers, and Jet power and I’d say they don’t have enough land units to take and hold ground from a Russian counterattack. They’d have to build even fewer land units to build more bombers/air units/or subs. Heck, I’d violate neutrality as the allies out of guilt, just to give them 14 more land units.
Any time I leave a battle to luck, I usually come up short of success. Over the years this has lead to more “over kill” attacks. I mostly stick to battles where I send enough in to end the battle in 1 round by odds, and that usually still takes me 2 or 3 rounds, because I am very good at missing. In fact I won’t flip a coin (attack with a single tank or plane as my main offense) as I often go three combat rounds missing and maybe hit on the 4th. To kill 1 infantry I always send 2 infantry and 2 “3’s” or better. This means that my strategies also rely on over kill for success. I won’t attack Moscow unless I have 10 more units in the battle, regardless of pips. In AA50 with Italy, I chose 2 cruisers to bombard, over the better 1 cruiser and 1 battleship. Give me a single die, and I’ll give you a miss, toss two and I usually find 1 hit. Is this logical? no…emotional? yes
Take sealion as a strategy, it fits in this case. As you need 4-5 battles to end with success before the attack on London can occur, and that even needs to end in success or you will be in a worse position when taking on Russia. Lose just 1 of the 4-5 battles and your whole plan fails.
Do my opponents use this against me? Yes. They build fleets that are smaller in defense as they know I won’t commit expensive pieces unless I am forced or have a large advantage. Do they leave less in a capital than they otherwise might? Yes.
Now, as a conservative player, I take fewer risks and I lose fewer battles. Meaning I conserve force to deploy again and again. I make fewer mistakes and as a result, I win more games then I lose in our gaming group. I’ve lost my share of games to heavy bombers, especially in aa50 or later as transports don’t defend and 1 heavy bomber costs 12 and needs to be countered with 2 DD’s or better at 16 or more IPC’s. Since the allies are the ones that need a fleet to win. Give the axis nukes and its game over. I don’t begrudge a person rolling for powers, and with the new ones, I won’t mind if they get them all. I’ll use the piece advantage I have, as getting all powers will cost 60 IPC’s if they get them all on the first try. Heck, give them 3 powers at 15 IPCs early enough in the game and I will make it hurt. You can play Germany with the powers stated above on turn 1, as long as you start the game with 15 IPC’s instead of 30. Now Japan’s a different story ;)
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The thing is, that if someone is winning by getting lucky on tech, they could just as easily be winning by getting lucky on the combat dice.
But unlike combat dice, tech is a bigger risk/reward. If you get lucky by spending 5 IPCs and getting something good, that’s worth quite a lot of good luck in combat. Conversely, if you get hosed and spend 40+ IPCs and dont get a tech, you are likely dooming yourself far worse than simply rolling bad in a battle here and there (depending on the scale of the battle).
I agree with allweneedislove in that if you play the averages, tech is probably not worth it. But that’s not what tech is about in the standard rules. Tech IS about ‘keeping your opponent honest’ because that investment COULD pay off into something really dangerous and that affects his planning (or should). And for that, the tech cost MIGHT be worth it with average luck.
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If buying 1 technology dice per round you would average 1 technology per 30ipc.
You can not direct your technology so you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the technology you want (but there probably is not any technology that your really want) you would be better off buying units that you can direct to be exactly what you want.
All techs are worthless, worth less than 30ipc
Tell us that when the usa is pounding germany with heavy long range bombers with jet fighter escorts,and the uk are sending over v2 rockets,its game over LOL
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I meant that from Southern Italy USA could build an airbase and take all of the Balkan states, not Baltic. Also I think Germany spending 15 IPC on an airbase turn 2 is a fine idea. Allows their fighters to reach Soviet Union and still be in position to defend the European coast. Transports can never move 4 spaces unless I have seriously misread the rulebook. I think you are just sour on tech. Germany rolling improved mech is a killer. Sure artillery will upgrade the attack to 2 as well but artillery cant move 2 spaces a turn. Mechanized infantry for a well played Germany is a game breaker and Moscow will fall. Also US will almost always buy tech tokens and when they finally have shipyards and some of the air techs the axis are hard pressed to win. You don’t have to like tech allweneedislove, nice name by the way I love the Beatles, but I think in a dice game where luck is always a factor, if you are feeling lucky it is a good idea.
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I like the tech-option.
First, I was sad, that they didn’t copy the anniversary tech-token-thing (keep the tokens if research fails), but this would give the US-player too much power.
Think both, Japan and Germany will invest a few IPCs for secret weapons to reach the “Endsieg”.
The tech-dices should be less expensive for the axis.
Maybe 4 IPCs for Germany, 5 IPCs for Japan and 6 IPCs for the rest.
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The system in AA50 was the better until the date, and I’m not going to play many games of AAG40 with the OOB system: I’ll play with tech tokens
i think this is the best decision to fix the overpriced techs
Now, I’ll add a bit about Classic (AAG40) system. It’s a very bad strategical option, but it can be a very good tactical option if you’re losing or if you are about to fight a mayor battle: spend 5 IPCs to see if lady luck smiles you. Any other case, Classic (AAG40) tech sucks
yes i agree with you that tech can be a good tactical option if you are in a losing situation and there is a tech or 2 that if you acquired would turn the odds of an important battle. but i still think it is a bad strategy.
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@Arminius:
1. The Aribase is situated in France, not in Normandy…
2. Paratroopers from West Germany Airbase could be used for Sea Lion too !
(3 Spaces) or am I missing something :?3. Most useless… I don´t know.
But looking at the Paratroopers rules for the first time I was slighty disapointed :oops:
Because of the “limited” use for the Player (only for combat) I thought of adding a non-combat movement Air Transoprt ability to this tech. Similar to some inoffical rules wich we played with the 2nd edition. But there it wasn´t a tech, every Bomber could be used for paratroopers and transport.1. i am wrong. you are correct about the airbase.
2. west german airbase can add 2inf subject to aafire into a sea lion attack. i was only replying to your statement that west german airbase could help add units to attack ussr. and the only ussr units it could attack is in baltic states, east poland and finland if under ussr control. again if you are going for sealion an extra transport would be better.
3. i still think it is the most useless of the 12 techs. it is a very rare situation that you can use it. however i have yet to play against an opponent that has paratroopers so maybe they can show me something that i am missing.
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I agree, since I prefer strategies that minimize luck as best as one strategy can. And tech rolls by there very nature require luck to be “more” useful or at least more “affordable”.
sounds like you might enjoy lowluck dice.
I think people would agree that an extremely expensive breakthrough is more harmful then useful. Imagine spending 10 ipcs a round for 5 rounds and not having a breakthrough. For Germany, that is like choosing to not collect 2 National Objectives until turn 6. Lets say they do that and get 3 breakthroughs over those 5 rounds, I’d still believe they were behind in the piece count vs Russia. Give them super subs, heavy bombers, and Jet power and I’d say they don’t have enough land units to take and hold ground from a Russian counterattack. They’d have to build even fewer land units to build more bombers/air units/or subs.
well said
Is this logical? no…emotional? yes
now you are talking. i love it when you can get emotional or excited by a board game. then you know you are having fun. so far i think the best argument i have seen for tech is maherc’s position that rolling for tech is fun.
Do my opponents use this against me? Yes. They build fleets that are smaller in defense as they know I won’t commit expensive pieces unless I am forced or have a large advantage. Do they leave less in a capital than they otherwise might? Yes.
its fun when your opponent makes up strategies due to your personal play style.
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If buying 1 technology dice per round you would average 1 technology per 30ipc.
You can not direct your technology so you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting the technology you want (but there probably is not any technology that your really want) you would be better off buying units that you can direct to be exactly what you want.
All techs are worthless, worth less than 30ipc
Tell us that when the usa is pounding germany with heavy long range bombers with jet fighter escorts,and the uk are sending over v2 rockets,its game over LOL
yes it probably is game over. game over for allies if they acquired those 3 techs they probably spent a fortune on them and have few actual units.
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1. I meant that from Southern Italy USA could build an airbase and take all of the Balkan states, not Baltic.
2. Also I think Germany spending 15 IPC on an airbase turn 2 is a fine idea. Allows their fighters to reach Soviet Union and still be in position to defend the European coast.
3. Transports can never move 4 spaces unless I have seriously misread the rulebook.
4. I think you are just sour on tech.
5. Germany rolling improved mech is a killer. Sure artillery will upgrade the attack to 2 as well but artillery cant move 2 spaces a turn. Mechanized infantry for a well played Germany is a game breaker and Moscow will fall.
6. Also US will almost always buy tech tokens and when they finally have shipyards and some of the air techs the axis are hard pressed to win.
7. You don’t have to like tech allweneedislove,
8. nice name by the way I love the Beatles, but I think in a dice game where luck is always a factor, if you are feeling lucky it is a good idea.
1. easy mistake to type baltic instead of balkans. however if usa has northern italy they must also have other units in on the attack of balkan states. all balkan states except greece are within two space of northern italy. mech inf could reach all but greece. i still feel paratroopers will very rarely be helpful.
2. you might be right i have not thought enough about it. i do try to stay away from spending on infrastructure as mush as possible thou.
3. the transports do not move 4 spaces the units on the transports move 4 spaces.
transport picks up unit from territory(ground units have now moved 1 space)
transport moves 2 spaces(ground units have now moved 3 spaces)
transport unloads unit into new territory(ground units have now moved 4 spaces)
they can move 5 with a naval base
for example an infantry can go from west germany to morroco via a transport which is 5 spaces away.4. you are right, i am sour on tech as the rule is written. thats probably why a made this thread.
5. i dont think that improved mech inf for germany is a game breaker. yes it is helpful to germany more than any other power but remember you only have 8 tanks(i think) to start the game with so thats only 8 extra pips. yes you can buy more but now you are spending lots of money on tanks and matching mech inf.
6. i do like the idea of tech tokens i think that would make the game better(more fun for me)
yes shipyards is best for usa, but think how bad it would be for ussr to get shipyards. even if usa gets shipyards they will probably never save the amount of ipcs it costs to acquire the technology. and even if it does break even or save money over many rounds, i believe they would be better off with more navy earlier.7. i do like tech. that is probably why i spent so much time lamenting the method of acquiring tech. i think either directed tech, cheaper tech, or my favourite of tech tokens would make the game more fun. its not the tech i do not like its the expensive, risky, and highly variable method to acquire tech that i do not like.
8. thanks i also love the beatles. but note that i have changed “you” to “we”
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I personally play with tech tokens so I guess we agree.
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Of all the tech systems, even though I don’t like tech as a long term plan:
I will say I actually rolled dice and designed ideas around targeted tech. It actually made sense that you might develop an improvement on ideas you choose to work on.
With regard to low luck, I will not play a version with it. I used to play in rated Chess leagues. Its kind of boring, you are either better then them or they are better then you. Dice can be a good equalizer. That said: Luck is very powerful for me, as I can minimize risks, and reap huge rewards when my opponents fail to do the same. That is why I hold France round 1 against the axis, or keep my Italian fleet, because you “don’t need” to send the carrier in.
Can luck also bite me in the rear, yes, but it will typically be at those worse times….defending a capital, capturing a blocking territory.
It just “feels” good to win, even when they throw the kitchen sink at you, and it hits you in just the right places…Uphill battles are fun, if you get to the top.
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I would think it would go without saying that relying on a chance breakthrough to win a war is not a sound tactical decision. Betting on luck is never good strategy, but it does work sometimes.
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Betting on luck is never good strategy, but it does work sometimes.
I’m generally a very kind and generous person, but this is the stupidest statement I’ve heard today so far.
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Really? Seems pretty sensible to me.
Good strategy would not rely on luck. In fact, I would posit that the BEST strategy would eliminate luck as a factor entirely, so that there is no chance of losing. Does that part make sense?
Sometimes you get lucky. The odds are against it, but when it happens, it’s a great boon, and can turn the tide of a battle. Does that part make sense?
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