I wrote something on Sealion tactics, and as I said there, Sealion isn’t worth it. If you’re going for London on G2, then UK will have lots of men in Egypt to crush Libya left over, and that’s always a hard battle for Italy. Plus, you’ve probably been neglecting the East, so a better-prepared Russia can slam into you. Then, there’s the US, which can now strike in either London or France, so you’ve got to protect both.
Sealion Version 1.0
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Look how distorted UK1 becomes just because of the threat of Sealion.
Italy rules the Med, for instance.All this before Germany even commits to the TT purchase G2.
Looks like a win for the Axis, regardless. -
How? Italy is going to take egypt no matter what you do for a few turns, and you still cost them the no ships in the med NO. On top of that, to keep there transports at egypt safe they have to move there fleet out of position. The UK can keep the carrier and/or destroyer and transport there, use it to liberate egypt, use it to strike at italy or where ever they decide. Yes it hurts you in Africa, but income wise the axis need Italy to hit the 30 mark to remain competitive.
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After looking closely at this G3 Sealion, it does have more flexibility than my G2 plan.
UK cant escape unless they buy crap first to prepare or they lose. Germany gets to play “on the button” as they say in poker… the last to act after seeing what others do, but holding the decisions first.
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This is his plan in a manner of which is more readable.
GERMANY: Turn 1
Purchase:
1 CV, 1 SS, 1 AP
save
$1Land Combat Movements:
Holland to Normandy: 1 inf, 1 art
Romania to Yugoslavia:1 inf, 1 tank
Slovakia to Yugoslavia:2 inf, 1 tank
South Germany to Yugoslavia:2 inf
West Germany to France:2 inf, 1 art, 4 Mech
Holland to France: 3 inf, 3 tanks
South Germany to France: 2 tanks
Poland to Yugoslavia: 1 TankKey land battle results:
Battle of France
5 Inf, 4 Mech, 1 Art, 5 tanks vs. 7 Inf, 2 art, 2 tanks, 1 FighterR1
Attack
5 Inf, 4 Mech, 1 art, 5 tanks = 27 - 5 hits
Defend
7 Inf, 2 art, 2 tank, 1 Fighter = 28 - 5 hitsR2
Attack
4 Mech, 1 art, 5 tanks = 22 - 4 hits
Defend
2 Inf, 2 art, 2 tanks, 1 Fighter = 18 - 3 hitsR3
Attack
1 Mech, 1 art, 5 tanks = 19 - 3 hits
Defend
2 tanks, 1 Fighter = 10 - 2 hits75% battle for Germany
Battle of Yugoslavia:
5 Inf, 3 tanks vs. 5 InfR1
Attack
5 Inf, 3 tanks = 14 - 2 hits
Defend
5 Inf = 10 - 2 hitsR2
Attack
3 Inf, 3 tanks = 12 - 2 hits
Defend
3 Inf = 6 - 1 hitR3
Attack
2 Inf, 3 tanks = 11 - 2 hits
Defend
1 Inf = 2 - 0 hit98% battle for Germany
Sea Zone 106 Attacks:
From Sea Zone 117: 1 SS
From Sea Zone 118: 1 SSBattle of sz106
2 SS vs 1 DD, 1 AP
Attack
2 SS = 4 - 1 hit
Defend
1 DD = 2 - 0 hit78% battle for Germany
Sea Zone 109 Attacks:
From Holland: 1 Fighter
From Sea Zone 108: 1 SSBattle of sz109
1 SS, 1 Fighter vs. 1 DD, 1 AP
Attack
1 SS, 1 Fighter = 5 - 1 hit
Defend
1 DD = 2 - 0 hit88% battle for Germany
I’ll lose the SS, as I didn’t lose one in sz106
Sea Zone 111 attacks:
From Norway: 1 Fighter
From Sea Zone 124: 1 SS
From West Germany: 1 Tactical Bomber
From Germany: 1 BomberBattle of sz111
1 SS, 1 Fighter, 1 tactical, 1 Bomber vs. 1 BB, 1 CAR1
Attack
1 SS, 1 Fighter, 1 tactical, 1 Bomber = 13 - 2 hits
Defend
1 CA, 1 BB = 7 - 1 hitR2
Attack
1 Fighter, 1 tactical, 1 Bomber = 11 - 2 hits
Defend
1 damaged BB = 4 - 1 hit90% battle for Germany
Sea Zone 112 Attacks:
From Sea Zone 113: 1 BB, 1 CA
From West Germany: 1 FighterBattle of Sea Zone 112
1 CR, 1 BB, 1 Fighter vs. 2 CAAttack
1 CA, 1BB, 1 Fighter = 10 - 2 hits
Defend
2 CA = 6 - 1 hit96% battle for Germany
Sea Zone 110 Attacks:
From Sea Zone 103: 1 SS
From West Germany : 1 Fighter, 2 TacticalBattle of sz110
1 SS, 1 Fighter, 2 tactical vs. 1 DD, 1 BBR1
Attack
1 SS, 1 Fighter, 2 tactical = 12 - 2 hits
Defend
1 DD, 1 BB = 6 - 1 hitR2
Attack
1 Fighter, 2 tactical = 10 - 2 hits
Defend
1 Damaged BB = 4 - 1 hit93% battle for Germany
Non Combat Movement:
Germany to West Germany
6 Inf, 4 artSouth Germany to West Germany
4 InfSouth Germany to Germany
1 artSea Zone 113 to Sea Zone 115
1 AP ( load from Poland 2 Inf to Finland)Romania to Bulgaria
1 InfNorway to Finland
2 InfSea Zone111 to West Germany
1 Tactical, 1 BomberSea Zone 110 to West Germany
2 TacticalSea Zone 109 to Sea Zone 112
1 FighterPlace
1 CV, 1 TT, 1 SS in Sea Zone 112
Collect
$64
The nice thing is Germany on her G2 turn can build 9 more AP’s giving them 11 total and landing on G3:
11 Inf, 8 tanks and 3 artillery 4 fighters, 3 tactical bombers, 1 bomber and 1 BB, 1 CA
Against:
23 UK infantry 3 fighters, 1 tactical bomber, 1 tank
Germany wins 85.7 to 13.3%
If i made a mistake and UK has 24 infantry, then the odds are 78% to 20%
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There’s a 40% chance that you will lose or draw one or more of the following battles: France, Z110, 111, 112
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Thats really high!
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@Imperious:
Thats really high!
40% chance you’ll lose or 60% chance you’ll win?
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If either Brit BB survives, it can kill the German fleet. If Z112 goes badly, Germany can’t sealion until g3. If France doesn’t fall, Germany builds 3 less transports G2
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40% chance you’ll lose or 60% chance you’ll win?
Yea. If you combine all these 90% attacks and assign a 40% cumulative to them, its the best you can hope for.
Now many attacks can get you 85%+
The 40% chance is one battle goes wrong. This plan can survive one miss and will win
It cant survive not killing one of the Uk BB’s. That causes uk to have enough on UK1 to kill SZ 112 fleet.
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I may alter this a bit.
It occured to me to change a couple details (b/c of bugaboo!)
But as IL said - I can buy the CV and watch what happens.
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Well please do it quick. This strategy is the holy grail of AAE40.
Post the blocks on UK1 and UK 2
And always use low luck because nobody can make claims about statistical variations or %.
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I may alter this a bit.
It occured to me to change a couple details (b/c of bugaboo!)
But as IL said - I can buy the CV and watch what happens.
Only da wife is allowed to call me that Jim! :evil:
But I guess that just means I have to find more ways to counter. I don’t see this ever becoming like the India crush, maybe the turn 1 pearl, but never the India crush.
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I don’t see this ever becoming like the India crush
I don’t either.
But I see the game becoming scripted.
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I see the concept of forced buys a very poor design feature. The whole idea is to allow many ways to get the job done without risking your entire game if you don’t do a certain thing because play-test didn’t have time to see all the angles.
The other thing is this constant “nuclear navy” feature that most navy’s are sunk on the first turn. Thats a terrible set up to even allow that.
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OK, Bugoo!
I got it. I have it back up to 88% at the battle of London, should all else go to odds. And better.
We’ll finish up our game and try again?
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@Imperious:
11 Inf, 8 tanks and 3 artillery 4 fighters, 3 tactical bombers, 1 bomber and 1 BB, 1 CA
Against:
23 UK infantry 3 fighters, 1 tactical bomber, 1 tank
Germany wins 85.7 to 13.3%
If i made a mistake and UK has 24 infantry, then the odds are 78% to 20%Although you have posted UK forces as if the transport in lab survives you have also posted the maximum nr of attacking planes, whereas this number is likely to be lower with the disposed attacks. You have yourself stated that 2 planes is likely to be lost.
One flaw with the way you are posting probabilities is the concept of winning a battle. In particular you are posting the odds of killing all the enemies in a grid block while having 1 or more unit alive. For instance; if you are left with 1 bomber in 111 and 1 tac in 110 thats a win by this definition, whereas its really not, it will break sealion.
As I got the battle calculator I’ve programmed at work I’m unable to back this up by quantitative numbers, but I’ll get back to this tomorrow.
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After seeing this tactic in play I have a few questions for the doubters:
1. Even if Jim’s math is slightly out - which depending on the methods used I agree with you can vary.
I think it is crystal clear that the tactic provides for a better then 60% chance of capturing UK on turn 3, do you agree?2. What would you do if you went with Jim’s tactic and it failed to capture UK on turn 3?
I know what I would do. load the transports again and hit turn 4, which given the Uk’s very limited resources has got to be a much higher probabilty, then the 78% on turn 3.
3. Your assuming a perfect defence with the UK, which I might add total screws the UK in the med and the atlantic even if they manage to hold (which requires luck) do you think any player that hadn’t seen it would stand a chance against it?
4. Do any of you think for a second that the game designers, really desgined a game “on purpose”, in which in MOST games played with the out of the box rules allows for the capture of UK on turn 3 and at worst turn 4?
It seems clear to me that Jim broke the game, good job with the math and great job with the overall tactic. It is clear we need to be discussing a fix, not if the tactcic works or not… It works, and what is more clear is that the math supports it working just about every game.
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Actually yes, I do believe it was designed for sea lion to be a possibility, maybe not this high in odds but yes. And no, I don’t think it breaks the game yet.
Remember all the Gencon posts of UK falling and Russia liberating it? I have no clue how on earth that would work, but it seems likely that it was expected to happen.
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4. Do any of you think for a second that the game designers, really desgined a game “on purpose”, in which in MOST games played with the out of the box rules allows for the capture of UK on turn 3 and at worst turn 4?
No they didn’t play-test enough times ( 3 times total in some cases). So they made a mistake.
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Sea Lion is possibly, but only just.
It isn’t like its a surprise if Germany is gearing up for an attack, so, if your worth anything as a serious player, you counter it. Keep your fighters there, build UK infantry, block with Destroyers, fly in United States Airpower (including bombers, they can take a hit instead of a fighter). If Germany shows their hand, then don’t be afraid to fight it! It isn’t like its gonna be a surprise. Besides, if Germany is dumb enough to attempt a Sealion, then let them waste their money, it only helps out Russia.
If the dice work out for Germany, then its possible that they take UK via Sealion, but think of the risks, I will never attempt it as Germany. You waste your money on ships that are just gonna die, you are force to scuttle your Luftwaffe, its strategically stupid to even attempt it. I play against an Axis lover who also happens to be a Sealion lover and I enjoyed watching him murder himself twice now, so as UK, I say Bring it, I will take you down with me.
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