Favorite Defensive Line of WWII

[ABWorsham4]

My grandfather’s U.S 2nd Inf went up againist two German fortifications, the Atlantic Port garrison of Brest and the Westwall. During both operations he was under his worst bombardments. A mortar attack at Brest and an 88 along the Westwall. His job in the Army was to cook, then haul the food to front line units. He told me along the Westwall the last thing you wanted to do was carry food to a unit on the frontline while both sides are dug in, you stick out like you have a target painted on you.

[CWO Marc]

@ABWorsham:

My grandfather’s U.S 2nd Inf went up againist two German fortifications, the Atlantic Port garrison of Brest and the Westwall. During both operations he was under his worst bombardments.

Brest was tough objective to take.  Like Cherbourg it was a major port, and as such it was heavily defended by the Germans, who wanted to keep Atlantic ports out of Allied hands for as long as possible, thus restricting their ability to bring in the massive supplies they needed (much of which had to come in through the Normandy beachhead for quite a long time).  Brest also got heavily bombed prior to the D-Day invasion, owing in part to the large U-boat pens which were located there (and which are still used today by the French Navy).  By the time the Allies had liberated Brest (I believe in September 1944), a large percentage of the town had been smashed to rubble.  I visited Brest a few years ago, and I brought back as a souvenir a book of before-and-after photographs showing various places in old Brest and their current appearance today.  Brest had to be rebuilt very quickly, so much use was made of concrete and little attention was paid to historic preservation or architectural elegance.  The town nowadays looks rather bland as a result.

[ABWorsham4]

From my readings on the subject the old Vauban fort proved to be the most difficult of the German held positions to capture during the Siege. My grandfather’s 2nd Inf was so chewed up from the fighting from St. Lo and Brest that they were sent to the area around St. Vith and got hit hard during the opening days of the Bulge.

[Kreuzfeld]

The defensive lines in front of moscow built in 1941 is missing. According to some (and me), the battle for moscow 1941 was perhaps the most important battle of WW2.

The lines in front of leningrad was also very important.

[ABWorsham4]

Do these Leningrad and Moscow lines have names? I will soon address Leningrad, I’m working on a WWII fortress poll. If you can find any names, I will add them to the poll.

[Kreuzfeld]

the moscow line was a combination of 3 lines, It think they where called
1.  Rzhev-Vyazma defense setup
2. Mozhaisk defense line
3.  Moscow Defense Zone

Combined the formed the 3 defencive lines around moscow.

[ABWorsham4]

@Kreuzfeld:

the moscow line was a combination of 3 lines, It think they where called
1.  Rzhev-Vyazma defense setup
2. Mozhaisk defense line
3.  Moscow Defense Zone

Combined the formed the 3 defencive lines around moscow.

Had winter not been an issue how do you think the Germans would have faired in taking Moscow?

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@Kreuzfeld:

the moscow line was a combination of 3 lines, It think they where called
1.  Rzhev-Vyazma defense setup
2. Mozhaisk defense line
3.  Moscow Defense Zone

Combined the formed the 3 defencive lines around moscow.

Thought you might come up with this, lol.
But I think this Topic was or is more about the well (more or less) prepared Defensive line, not Frontlines.
By Leningrad you were thinking about the Ladogasee battles wich formed a Defensiv line (Frontline) arround Leningrad to the occuring Situation.

The Atlantic wall i.e. was built to fight off a near by threat in the near future.(Defensiv line)

As far as for Moskau we should have also included Briansk and Orel, without that particular Traffic knot a further advance would have been not given. BUT it is not a specific Defensiv line rather an Important Frontline.

[Kreuzfeld]

these lines where prepared and, just not finished. The first one ran along the frontline and the preparation started after the battle of smolesk. so I would say it is as much of a line as the gothic line, gustav line or maybe even the voltran line.

[FieldMarshalGames]

I always liked the Cherbourg “line”…  because it was just a red lind on a Hitler’s Map…

[Omega1759]

@ABWorsham:

@Kreuzfeld:

the moscow line was a combination of 3 lines, It think they where called
1.�  Rzhev-Vyazma defense setup
2. Mozhaisk defense line
3.�  Moscow Defense Zone

Combined the formed the 3 defencive lines around moscow.

Had winter not been an issue how do you think the Germans would have faired in taking Moscow?

Depends on the morale of the Soviet army. Most likely scenario, the Germans get in a rough urban fight before getting encircled and annihilated by a counter attack due to insufficient reserves.

[Gargantua]

@Omega1759:

@ABWorsham:

@Kreuzfeld:

the moscow line was a combination of 3 lines, It think they where called
1.�  Rzhev-Vyazma defense setup
2. Mozhaisk defense line
3.�  Moscow Defense Zone

Combined the formed the 3 defencive lines around moscow.

Had winter not been an issue how do you think the Germans would have faired in taking Moscow?

Depends on the morale of the Soviet army. Most likely scenario, the Germans get in a rough urban fight before getting encircled and annihilated by a counter attack due to insufficient reserves.

I once met a German Lieutenant who was there at the time, and I asked him that same question.

His response as I recall…

‘We would have crushed those sub-human vermin like cockroaches in a blender.’

;)

[CWO Marc]

@Gargantua:

‘We would have crushed those sub-human vermin like cockroaches in a blender.’

I assume he was giving a modern metaphor rather than a contemporary one, since I don’t think they had blenders in 1941.  At any rate, this one guy from whom I’d never accept a home-made milkshake.

[Kreuzfeld]

altho, I really like your source garg. It is not that much of a believable source, he would not have seen the big picture from his vantage point.

It guess military historians would be the best judges, however I can’t think of anyone who have gone into this subject.

I always find it perculiar that historians cant agree wheither if was a good or bad idea for hitler to send army group center south after smolesk, to get a huge kiev encirclement, and capture alot of unrailed factories, rather than to attack moscow imideatly

[aequitas-et-veritas]

@Kreuzfeld:

altho, I really like your source garg. It is not that much of a believable source, he would not have seen the big picture from his vantage point.

It guess military historians would be the best judges, however I can’t think of anyone who have gone into this subject.

I always find it perculiar that historians cant agree wheither if was a good or bad idea for hitler to send army group center south after smolesk, to get a huge kiev encirclement, and capture alot of unrailed factories, rather than to attack moscow imideatly

because the historians think that the decission was made out of political reasons instead of a strategic view point of hitler.
If he would have gone for Moscow immediately then those four russian Army´s (5th, 21st,26th, and 37th)  could have become quite a problem of his center Heeresgruppe. Nevertheless, consider that a problem of fuel supply was comming as well.
But you are right, it was this point we have to consider the most on any IF questions!

[ABWorsham4]

It is amazing how much resources Hitler put into the defense of the British owned Channel Islands. He demanded between 10 to 25% of all Atlantic Wall material get dedicated to these Islands.

[texasranger97]

It is amazing how much resources Hitler put into the defense of the British owned Channel Islands. He demanded between 10 to 25% of all Atlantic Wall material get dedicated to these Islands.

Lucky for us, Hitler was really dumb and was a terrible commander. He crippled his air force, threw away an army (6th), wasted his Kriegsmarine,he made Normandy an allied victory.
I believe that Germany would have won if they had been a competent military mind as head of state, or even if Hitler just didn’t interfere in military decision.