Airbase in Northern Italy saves Italian fleet in Sz 97

@Ichabod:

@PainState:

A lot of posters seemed stunned at this scenario, never scene it ever happen or even could happen. Now that I mulled it over last night and looked at the rules and so forth it is very obvious to me why no one has ever scene this scenario. Because the scenario makes no logical sense.

Italy DOW on Russia and moves in 2 tanks into Eastern Poland.
Russia is now at war with Italy and can DOW on Germany at the start of their next turn, turn 3.
Germany on Turn 3 does not DOW on Russia and just non combats into Eastern Poland.
Russia at the start of Turn 3 DOW on Germany and off we go.

There is no logical reason why Russia would not DOW on Germany at the start of Turn 3, none.

Heck you could argue that it makes no logical sense that Germany did not DOW on Russia at the start of G3 since Italy brought Russia into the war and Russia WILL DOW on Germany on R3.

Hi PainState,

From my perspective, if I was planning on doing a G3 Barbarossa AND I wanted to drive towards the south, then yes, it makes sense to not DOW. My stack will be together except for the minimum required mobile units and maybe 1 AAA in Poland so Russia doesn’t attack Poland to get their NO for occupying an Axis territory. But E. Poland will be real strong because the German air will be there and maybe bombers will also be in range of a raid on the Moscow factory. Also, 5 IPCs is more income than I’d probably get as Germany on the 1st turn.

There are a few disadvantages of course. 1, Russian blockers can’t be attacked. 2, the Scandinavian units are behind. But for me that’s ok, I just use them to lay siege anyways. I never expect to get Moscow on turn 6 anymore. I assume that the UK/Anzac and that lone French fighter are going to get to Moscow.Â

“Never” is a strong word, and you even went so far as to hold down shift as you typed it and then went back to underline it afterwards.

If the airbase lets you hold Gibraltar for one extra turn, maybe even two, then is that 15 IPCs worth it for you?
Very possibly, sure. Delaying a US entry into the Med for one turn probably saves Italy at least 5 IPCs right off the bat, not to mention delaying its eventual economic implosion by an entire turn more of income.

Is it still worth it if the Americans can fly straight to Egypt or Norway from Gibraltar now?
Maybe they can’t do that yet, and won’t for another turn or two. Very possibly, yes, it’s still worth it. Maybe because you had that airbase, however, your Axis units were able to abandon Gibraltar and get into a better position on their way out. Lot’s of “if”'s. A lot of combinations of them add up to it being worth it.

Is it still worth it if the Americans can scramble planes off of it to defend their navy?
If you weren’t planning on attacking their navy (maybe because you simply don’t have the resources to do so), yes, absolutely, then there’s no difference at all.

So, yeah, sometimes it’s alright to give your opponent a facility if you got your money’s worth out of it first, even if it is only for a turn or two. Plenty of US and JP plays depend on building a naval base that’s only ever really used once in the game. There are some cases where the same is true for air bases all over the place.

I know people hate them but I like having a couple cruisers in my fleet accompanied by a good screen of subs and DDs to protect carriers. I’d rather spend 4 more IPCs and have two slightly less powerful rolls of the dice in a battle while still having the ability to soak the two hits a BB would get with one unit.

Note that I play 2nd edition. I don’t know how this compares to alpha+3.

The first thing that I look out for with the UK, is what is Germany doing? IF a serious sea-lion is posed, I move every available ship from the UK med-fleet (and the french if they survive) to Gibraltar, as well as every ratty old plane the UK has in the med. This requires removal of the Italian TRS+DD in SZ96 in the 2nd edition.
With this move and smart builds in London, Sea Lion will fail miserably. Italy on the other hand will be stronger in Africa but you can’t have both London and Cairo. Rest assured that you will take back the latter, if Italy takes it at all. If Germany continues on the Sea Lion Path, all the Gibraltar stuff moves north to fight Germans, who will fail, Russia will roll over Germany and it is game over very quickly for the Axis. EVEN if Lucky dicerolls hands them over London they will not be able to stop the Russians anymore because they will loose too much in the battle of London… Unless they roll SO DAMN Lucky that they manage to keep all their Luftwaffe + take London with their last tank  :roll:
If Germany does NOT continue with Sea Lion (you can tell by their production), move the Gibraltar stuff + STR and FTR from London back into Africa, ending the Italian dreams there with moderate effort.

If Germany never poses/feighns a Sea-Lion threat, do a ‘Taranto’ or ‘Tobruk’ UK1. The specifics vary from the preferences from player to player but in general it comes down to attack as much Italian ships (or its units in Tobruk) with as much of your air/ships.
Personally I prefer to kill all Italian ships in SZ96 and SZ97 with all UK-ships that can get to them plus all aircraft that can get there. Note that the STR in London can get there and land in Malta as well as 2 FTR from London that can land on the CV if necessary. I personally take ships (even the CV) as losses, and land all surviving aircraft (which should very well be all) in Malta, but this may also differ according to your preferences.

If you fear/don’t know how to handle a ‘surprise Sea Lion’ from the Germans, seriously consider to consolidate around Gibraltar UK1, doing ‘Taranto’ (sort of) UK2. Taranto is most effective UK1 but loses not much of its effect if executed UK2.

Good luck and have fun playing!

If you try it out, you’ll see that the U.K. can’t sufficiently reinforce France, even with the additional 6 French troops, from having Germany crush it on round 2.  Even if every available plane is landed there, and the strafe leaves 2 tanks plus the fighter, it’s impossible to hold.  So all that landing planes accomplishes is wiping out the British airforce (and keeping France from falling to Italy).  The payoff isn’t worth it.

The biggest downsides I can imagine are that (1) it is much more difficult to hold off serious landings at Normandy by the US and/or UK.  Italy then has to protect Western Europe and the Med–although with Germany taking S France, they can dump ships in the Med as well if it comes to that (subs backed up by planes would be cheap).  And (2) delaying the war on the Pacific side until round 3 (which would make this work much better at times, depending on the US builds) means that UK Pacific can shuttle some troops over.

The really nice thing about this strategy is that it’s more efficient to have Italy be the 1 force in the Med, and not have to worry about building enough ships off the S France factory right away to protect them from UK planes.

I think it’s going to be the standard opening in our play group for the foreseeable future.

The counter someone mentioned above about making sure to buy troops in S Africa–either mechs, or infantry/artillery to go with transports, in combination with some shuttling from India, is probably the safe response.

Grover and I just started another game, with me being the Axis, and I’ve got to say I’m enjoying the big Italian boost.

And to answer your question, a lot of people don’t do SeaLion b/cuz it’s not always a guaranteed thing. Depends on what the UK does. If the UK makes it as difficult as possible, then most likely the Germans can take it still but it might be a little dicey and leave them vulnerable to the Russians. If the UK makes it easier then the Germans will be more likely to do a SeaLion. I don’t think a successful SeaLion always means an Axis victory.

If Germany goes Sea Lion, Italy will thrive. If Germany goes Barbarossa, Italy will most likely slowly halt.

Yes, it can do that. Refer to page 20 of the P40 rulebook, under restrictions on placement:
“New Sea units can enter play even in a hostile sea zone. No combat occurs because the conduct combat phase is over.”