Larry Harris endorsed setup change

[johnnymarr]

Per LH 8/1/10

Have the 2 UK transports begin off India, instead of off Malaya.

I see the merit it this suggestion. The UK navy without a surviving transport is like a junk yard dog with no teeth. Other than barking… what good is it?

This simple adjustment will offer many more dynamic options to the UK player as he desperately tries to hold back the Japanese onslaught.
I like it.
I will also lobby for this setup change to appear on future print runs of the game.

Thanks

[bugoo]

Well, that is a bit of a game changer right there, I like it.

Granted, I still don’t think it will stop an India Crush strat, but its a start.

Because against an India crush, it will result in an extra 8 IPCs, or 3 INF.  Not really enough to stop it.

[Commander JayVon]

Well, if he endorsed it, I’ll try it. However, I wonder if any players here on this site have tried that, if so what were the results?

The way I see it, it won’t stop the inevitable, but it could slow the Japanese down, at least in the Dutch East Indies.

[bugoo]

One fun ‘trick’ i can see doing with that against the India crush would be an airbase on boreno, and putting UK’s 5 planes, along with 4 inf, and 1 ANZAC plane there turn 1.  Then on turn 2 you can get the other 3 ANZAC figs and 2 US planes there.  Would keep Japan away from 9 IPCs for awhile and be a big danger to there fleets.  Not sure if it would work out as well as i think it would though as Japan can use ground based planes to attack the SZ (deter scramble) and carrier based planes and carriers to hit the island.

[kaufschtick]

@johnnymarr:

Per LH 8/1/10

Have the 2 UK transports begin off India, instead of off Malaya.

I see the merit it this suggestion. The UK navy without a surviving transport is like a junk yard dog with no teeth. Other than barking… what good is it?

This simple adjustment will offer many more dynamic options to the UK player as he desperately tries to hold back the Japanese onslaught.
I like it.
I will also lobby for this setup change to appear on future print runs of the game.

Thanks

Holy Crap! Is this for real!?!

@bugoo:

One fun ‘trick’ i can see doing with that against the India crush would be an airbase on boreno, and putting UK’s 5 planes, along with 4 inf, and 1 ANZAC plane there turn 1.  Then on turn 2 you can get the other 3 ANZAC figs and 2 US planes there.  Would keep Japan away from 9 IPCs for awhile and be a big danger to there fleets.  Not sure if it would work out as well as i think it would though as Japan can use ground based planes to attack the SZ (deter scramble) and carrier based planes and carriers to hit the island.

You could also get the 2 US bombers in there as well on US 2…every little bit helps when you are talking about a potentially game altering move.

That could be a real problem for Japan! The airbase part being huge as a force multiplier along with 4 Infantry! They would have to take it on J2, as the alternative of allowing the ANZAC and US reinforcements to reach Borneo with an airfield would be unacceptable. Least the Allies establish a “Truk” of their own on Borneo.

It is also going to make the Japanese have to go to Java on turn one to avoid the air stack there, now with 4 British Infantry. That would make a J1 attack on the PI extremely risky as the only 2 Japanese fighters capable of reaching the land battle in the PI on turn 1 are needed on the Japanese CV in SZ42.

Would you risk a CV w/ 1 ftr, a BB & a DD against the British attack of 1 CA, 1 DD, 3 x ftr & 1 DB on turn 1 as the Japanese?

This one “simple change” as it is described, could make the J1 attack something to think about again.

I would also be very interested to know if there has been any playtesting done on this? A neat suggestion it may be, but a British stand in Borneo seems way out of whack with the whole Singapore thing, as it actually happened.

I’m thinking they may want to move the British transports to SZ 38 instead.

B1 Amphibious attack on Vietnam (the Japanese would be forced to screen SZ 36)?

I like the idea of being able to reinforce Singapore though.

B1 amphibious & air attack on Kwangsi!?!

British could even land on New Guinea right off the bat if SZ 42 was clear?

[bugoo]

For that you would need to be able to scramble from any airbase, which you should be allowed to do.  As far as a J1 take of Java it would still happen, as would a J3 take of India, its just a question of what it would cost.

Now if he’ll endorse the BB/Cruiser swap as well, then we really got something going.

[kaufschtick]

@bugoo:

For that you would need to be able to scramble from any airbase, which you should be allowed to do.

So you’re saying that only British planes can scramble from a British airbase?

Is that official?

Are you saying that US planes can’t scramble from New Zealand?

@bugoo:

As far as a J1 take of Java it would still happen, as would a J3 take of India, its just a question of what it would cost.

Well, by my way of thinking, if the Japanese go to Java on J1 with two ftrs, then that leaves the PI attack at 2 x Inf, 2 x Arty & 1 DB? Is that right? I’ve already seen games where the Japanese only take the PI with 1 land unit, now reduce the attacking dice by a “4” shot!?!

I would think this battle would then fall under the plausibility of the Japanese having fair odds to not win it. What, maybe even as high as 1 in 4, the US holds? The Japanese may even have to start taking the tank, as they wouldn’t want to be down to their last unit as a plane.

@bugoo:

Now if he’ll endorse the BB/Cruiser swap as well, then we really got something going.

Oooh, I don’t see that happening.

The Prince of Wales & Repulse.

[gamerman01]

@kaufschtick:

Oooh, I don’t see that happening.

The Prince of Wales & Repulse.

Only one small detail.  The Prince of Wales wasn’t sent to Singapore until 1941, from what I found researching it.  I posted this on Larry’s site - wonder if he’ll respond.

[kaufschtick]

@gamerman01:

@kaufschtick:

Oooh, I don’t see that happening.

The Prince of Wales & Repulse.

Only one small detail.  The Prince of Wales wasn’t sent to Singapore until 1941, from what I found researching it.  I posted this on Larry’s site - wonder if he’ll respond.

Whoa, nice “quick fact” there! :-D

Hell, I’d be happy enough if the transports got moved back!

How do you “rate this thread” to make the little stars pop up by it in the forum index?

This is a huge developement, IMHO.

I’m going to have to head over to the Harris website and see if my account is still active over there…

Oh, yeah, after 230+ hrs on this game, and being right to the point where we might be giving up on it, I’m gonna have to go grab a beer too! :-D

[bugoo]

no no, anyones planes can scramble, i ment making Mayala into a fortress would require that planes can scramble from a coastal airbase.

As for J1 java you keep the fig from the carrier, and add the fig from formosa that attacked the UK BB/trans, just lose a bomber if UK gets a hit.

You still hit Phi with 2 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Arm, 1 Tac.  Thats 5 hits, with 13 punch vs 4 hits with 9 defense, or really good odds.

Edit: Minor counting mistake, coulda swore another plane somewhere could reach phi.

[kaufschtick]

@bugoo:

no no, anyones planes can scramble, i ment making Mayala into a fortress would require that planes can scramble from a coastal airbase.

Whew, gotcha! I thought, OMG, don’t tell me we’ve been playing that wrong!  :lol:

@bugoo:

As for J1 java you keep the fig from the carrier, and add the fig from formosa that attacked the UK BB/trans, just lose a bomber if UK gets a hit.

You still hit Phi with 2 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Arm, 1 Tac.  Thats 5 hits, with 13 punch vs 4 hits with 9 defense, or really good odds.

Right, that’s how I see it, just checking. My thing is that we’ve seen games where the Japanese attack the PI with 2 x Inf, 2 x Arty, 1 x ftr & 1 x DB, and have just only taken the PI with 1 land unit.

You definately would want to swap out one of the Arties for a tank if the ftr doesn’t go in.

I could see the Japanese taking this fight on the chin from time to time though. Anyone out there with one of those battle calculator deals have the numbers on this one?

@bugoo:

Edit: Minor counting mistake, coulda swore another plane somewhere could reach phi.

I went over to my buddies place this past Monday evening, in Dayton, and when I got there, after some time drinking a few beers and playing the game, we hopped online here to see what the scoop was on the J3 India crush from Jim01.

We were already getting a little silly, and Jim threw out the abreviation Phi for the Philippines, and Ind. for India.

Well, for us around here, Phi. is the abreviation for Philadelphia, and Ind. for Indiana. So we were having some fun with Jim on that in one of the other threads… :lol:

People who are drinking to the point of getting silly, like we were that night, should refrain from posting… :-D

I would think that the Japanese may also want to consider placing some kind of IJN pieces in SZ36 as well. If the two Brit transports get moved back. Otherwise the big Japanese airbase in Kwangsi may get a suprise attack, complete with an off shore shelling! Just think if the British BB gets moved back as well!

One thing is for certain though, the British infantry in Singapore would be safer in Borneo with an airbase than in Singapore. Plus, they’d be protecting more British IPCs.

Or the British could pull them (British Singapore garrison) back to Burma on B1, I wonder what that would do to the J3 India Crush? I think I read something about moving the troops up from India to Burma on B1 to try to deny that territory as a Japanese air base.

Going to Borneo with a UK airbase looks real promising though, if the Japanese were to not respond on J2, they could be in real trouble from that point forward.

[fanofbond]

Now all I need is this to be edited in the errata so my play group will accept the change.

[gamerman01]

@fanofbond:

Now all I need is this to be edited in the errata so my play group will accept the change.

Go to Harris’ Design website.  He responded specifically to Kauf about changes and said we should “print his e-mail” and show that to your friends.

Straight from the dude who invented the games.  Should be good enough for your play group.  :-)

[Whackamatt]

I’m not finding those comments on the Harris site.  I’m in the Pacific 40 forum and don’t see even where it could be located.

[johnnymarr]

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2386&p=26777#p26777

[Veqryn]

dude, you did not include the entire quote……  :evil:

i think the full quote should be listed… cus… i rock!    :mrgreen:

full quote:

Veqryn
I understand and agree with your alternate setup suggestion…
Quote:
Have the 2 UK transports begin off India, instead of off Malaya.

I see the merit it this suggestion. The UK navy without a surviving transport is like a junk yard dog with no teeth. Other than barking… what good is it? This is of course not only about giving teeth to junk yard dogs but about game play balance. I’ve seen situations develop in games that I frankly never anticipated or ran into during the development of the game.

Sometimes I wish I had taken a more conservative path and not given Japan all those aircraft. If I had I could have avoided a lot of problems. However, I ultimately felt that Japan should be represented as the master of the skys, as they were at the time. I have no regrets for the high number of Japanese aircraft in AAP40, but boy, with all their range and combat power, they raise hell on game balance issues. This UK setup change will help adjust and fine tune the game.

This setup adjustment will offer more dynamic options to the UK player as he or she desperately tries to hold back the Japanese inital onslaught.

I’m also considering moving the BB (Prince of Wales) out of that sea zone, but that will take a bit more thought. I’m open to suggestions as relates to this BB’s ajusted placement on the map, if any…

I think the internet should be used in an effective, constructive way. If hours and hours of played games ultimately point out a problem with certain aspects of the OOB game… I feel it my duty and my opportunity to take advantage of this acquired information and ultimately make the game better by adjusting it accordingly.

I will also lobby for this setup change to appear on future print runs of the game.

Thanks

[WILD BILL]

Larry has followed through with his info gathering. He is ranking ideas, and asking us to do the same.

[eggsaladsandwich]

in his forums Larry writes:
Presently on the table of consideration (in no particular order)
are:
1. Simply move the BB and 2 transports back to India

2. Swap the BB with the cruiser and…
2.A. Leave one transport
2.B. Leave no transports (moving both back to India)

3. Leave the BB and one transport where they are (sea zone 37).

3. Doing something with the 3 fighters in New Zealand to… (?)

4. Add US destroyer to sea zone 26
4.A. Move US destroyer from sea zone 10 to 26.

5. Move ANZAC destroyer from sea zone 62 to sea zone 45 (this is just something I’ve been thinking about).

6. Add one ANZAC fighter to Queensland.

7. Add a naval base to New South Wales

With that said, and the ideas numbered, I’m leaning towards:
2+2B+4+5

What would be your numerical choices? And/or do you have other ideas (be ready to back them up with a damn good argument). For example, my contribution to this list is #5. It prevents the Japanese Caroline Islands fleet from reaching Java on turn one.

Again, thanks for your inputs.

Larry

[jim010]

5 would allow the ANZAC planes to get to India for defense.  It will help grind out a few more fht.  The odds of taking Ind turn 3 is still high even with the 4 AN fht, though.

[Damsbo]

The destroyer in z45 should make it impossible for Japan to take India by turn 3, as it will allow the UK fleet to screen India on turn 3, or am i mistaken?