Bids

[BulwFi]

I dont play Axis and Allies online. I Prefair to play face-to-face. Also how can someone put a time limit on a game of axis and allies?? The winning strategies you talk about, your trying to tell me that there is a magic winning strategy to a game of axis and allies? LoL you need to catch yourself on.

I had no idea that I had struck such a bad nerve with you over this topic, after all i am only expressing my opinion. To recieve such a heavy handed reply mixed with twisted statments tells me two things:

1. That the Game creators cannot put together a balanced and fair tabletop game based on Chance (dice), and you and many others could obviously do a superior job than they.

2. Bids, Handicaps and the such somehow make yourself and many others feel comfortable about playing Axis and allies. And i dare to say ‘you cud not win a game without.’

I await your reply.

[BulwFi]

Cud i just say that in our group games we always have 6 players! Never play 1v1, very shallow and boring.

[Zhukov44]

BulwFi wrote…

We have playtested with bids and other ‘hadicaps’ only to find these biased to weaker, lower skill players so dont assume otherwise SAS.

and

I dont know why AnA players have indroduced bids. It seems pointless and in my view is for weaker players!

and

Never play 1v1, very shallow and boring.

You are the one throwing around the insults.  Your mode of discussion is a textbook definition of ‘trolling’.  Nobody has any problem with you playing without bids, so why do you have a problem with us playing with bids?

Bidding is for advanced/expert players, typically in a 1-1 setting.  If you play group games, you can probably get on fine without a bid.

So this discussion is pointless.  We are talking about 2 different things.

[DarthMaximus]

@BulwFi:

Cud i just say that in our group games we always have 6 players! Never play 1v1,

That is a BIG factor in bid levels.

@BulwFi:

I dont play Axis and Allies online. I Prefair to play face-to-face. Also how can someone put a time limit on a game of axis and allies?? The winning strategies you talk about, your trying to tell me that there is a magic winning strategy to a game of axis and allies? LoL you need to catch yourself on.

Time limits are needed for FTF tournaments as Yoper was refering too.  It can take all day to pay one game so in a tournament atmosphere over 2-3 days there needs to be a way to get in several rounds.

@BulwFi:

1. That the Game creators cannot put together a balanced and fair tabletop game based on Chance (dice), and you and many others could obviously do a superior job than they.

In A&A first edition, there were no limits on unit placement for new ICs.  Thus the strategy of the Allies buying and IC and placing in Persia was born.  And the correction of limited placement (only place ipc value of Ter) was put into place for 2nd Ed.  It simply isn’t possible for the creators and game testers could forsee every strategy possible.

The testers test for a few months, we can play year after year after year, have access to a vaste majority of games as well as a world wide selection of players.

@BulwFi:

2. Bids, Handicaps and the such somehow make yourself and many others feel comfortable about playing Axis and allies. And i dare to say ‘you cud not win a game without.’

It depends on which side you get.  The alternative to that statement would be "you could not lose if your opponent doesn’t get one’.

Bidding isn’t really a touchy subject, its just that we are all players looking for great strats, so if there are things that we miss we’d love to hear it.  We can only go by what we’ve seen play out here and strategies that people post about and how games play out in our league and tourney or cross over posts from TripleA players or players from other clubs.

[fanofbond]

I don’t feel bids are nessesary for when poeple are playing with dice but if playing low luck then a bid is needed.  Period.  That is something I think gets overshadowed in these discussions whether you play with dice or low luck.

[Funcioneta]

LL is a house rule that alters the game dinamic radically. Any well tested and balanced setup could potentially be broken if playing LL (specially round 1 navy battles but also key land zones as Egypt). But with a unbalanced setup, LL only serves to make greater the unbalance, because advantaged side can play many safe battles with 0% chances of them going bad

AA50 is broken with normal dices. With LL house rule is even worst. Also it usually kills the new tech system, one of the good additions of AA50 (because I assume that LL means also no tech)

[axis_roll]

@Funcioneta:

it usually kills the new tech system, one of the good additions of AA50

I guess when all you have is a skateboard, a bike looks pretty good.

NO, and I mean NO version of A&A (OOB rules) has had a GOOD tech system.  Adding MORE random dice to a game with enough of them does NOT make a good addition to the game (IMHO)

Revised was closest to a good tech system as it at least allowed targetting a weapon, and it didn’t allow a surprise tech roll to win you a game.  No “I rolled heavy bombers, I win!”  also known as Yahtzee! Tech

But, I digress, that’s another thread altogether
I couldn’t help but not respond to Funcioneta’s tech comment, apologies

[Corbeau Blanc]

While I totally agree bids are for weak players, I’d say the best way is to simply bid 0 and play allies to avoid any whining from the weaker player.

Also, It’s always great to beat someone who is convinced axis are too strong when not only you let them play them, but you do so by the book in conditions he would not dare to play allies. It’s like adding the cherry on top of the sunday or taking a candy from a new born baby ( I would not do that to my own son, mind you  :roll: ).

Moral of the story is if your opponent ask for a bid, you know you already won. Agree to his terms, bid 0 and watch his world fall appart. :evil:

[Funcioneta]

@axis_roll:

NO, and I mean NO version of A&A (OOB rules) has had a GOOD tech system.  Adding MORE random dice to a game with enough of them does NOT make a good addition to the game (IMHO)
Revised was closest to a good tech system as it at least allowed targetting a weapon, and it didn’t allow a surprise tech roll to win you a game.  No “I rolled heavy bombers, I win!”  also known as Yahtzee! Tech

I have a different point of view:

• Classic: you spend money. If you fail, you lose the money. If you success, you have still to roll a die and if you get super subs or another crappy tech, you are screwed anyway. But if you hit the 2 broken techs (industrial fancy and triple bombers), you screw the game anyway. So I agree with Classic tech being crap. It’s not a surprise that almost nobody wants play Classic tech

• Revised: you spend money. If you fail, you lose the money, so usually tech rolls are a poor option even if rolling for HBs (too risky). As is directed, it has more use than Classic tech, and HBs were nerfed (in LHTR they were reduced to crap). It had a fail: since it was directed, almost nobody rolled for SSs, Jets or fancy DDs
  In resume, tech was pretty weak in Revised, mostly futile (I played many tech games in Revised FTF and tech rolls were a very very rare purchase). So for those or us that like tech, there was not much point wanting fight against tech haters for a weapon that simply was very poor

• AA50: being a broken game as it is due setup failures, however came with many engine improvements, being tech one of the most importants. Now you don’t lose the money when you roll for tech, so there is a incentive for purchasing tech teams. To compensate, tech now is not directed but you have a choice with land and navy tech teams, so you don’t get stuck with SSs being USSR and you see rare things as USA with mech inf here and there. Finally tech is a usable weapon and a valid strat, and HBs were nerfed again with FAQs. So I think that tech system of AA50 is best in the series
  You cannot say that HBs, even without nerfing, is game over in AA50. There are many counters available in the tech trees. In fact, I feel that techless AA50 is a bit poor because you don’t have to care about the multiple variations tech gives. Now it’s important fight against tech haters, and more since seems that this tech system is going to be almost the same in G40. And lasty, if you feel that a single tech is too good, simply pact with the rivals nerfing or delaying it but keep the system

[Funcioneta]

@Corbeau:

While I totally agree bids are for weak players, I’d say the best way is to simply bid 0 and play allies to avoid any whining from the weaker player.

The problem is when axis player starts whining because he won too easy and had a boring victory. No risk of losing, no fun: this is not like 40/60 chances of Revised FTF multiplayer games, it’s more like the 5/95 chances of PBEM one to one Classic games

As axis, I’d like a limited allied asian bid. This way I ensure that Japan is a challenge and not a boring stomping fest, and also that the bid is not going to screw the balanced area of the map (Europe/Africa) and so prevent promoting a ignore Japan fanmania. For 1942 scenario, limited asian bid is still good for soviets because you could bid, say, one tank for kaz and the rest for India/China where the unbalance is most serious. Egypt bids usually balance the game, but at the cost of promoting boring ignore Japan strats, so Egypt bids are not the solution

[axis_roll]

@Funcioneta:

@axis_roll:

NO, and I mean NO version of A&A (OOB rules) has had a GOOD tech system.  Adding MORE random dice to a game with enough of them does NOT make a good addition to the game (IMHO)

• AA50: being a broken game as it is due setup failures, however came with many engine improvements, being tech one of the most importants. Now you don’t lose the money when you roll for tech, so there is a incentive for purchasing tech teams. To compensate, tech now is not directed but you have a choice with land and navy tech teams, so you don’t get stuck with SSs being USSR and you see rare things as USA with mech inf here and there. Finally tech is a usable weapon and a valid strat, and HBs were nerfed again with FAQs. So I think that tech system of AA50 is best in the series
  You cannot say that HBs, even without nerfing, is game over in AA50. There are many counters available in the tech trees. Now it’s important fight against tech haters, and more since seems that this tech system is going to be almost the same in G40. And lasty, if you feel that a single tech is too good, simply pact with the rivals nerfing or delaying it but keep the system

You overlook the ‘instantaneous’ aspect of the broken YATHZEE Tech system.
That aspect in and of itself ruins the tech system.  Oh, sure, you’re supposed to always ‘prepare’ for the CHANCE that your opponent will hit a tech.  That’s like saying we can be prepared for a tornado strike on your house.  I prefer to not play a ‘paranoid’ style of game-play for outcomes that will occur with such a small chance of occurance.

@Funcioneta:

In fact, I feel that techless AA50 is a bit poor because you don’t have to care about the multiple variations tech gives.

I don’t see how adding more RANDOM combinations of outcomes makes a game more strategic?  Because there’s more premutations?

that logic is non-logical.

[Zhukov44]

@Corbeau:

While I totally agree bids are for weak players, I’d say the best way is to simply bid 0 and play allies to avoid any whining from the weaker player.

Also, It’s always great to beat someone who is convinced axis are too strong when not only you let them play them, but you do so by the book in conditions he would not dare to play allies. It’s like adding the cherry on top of the sunday or taking a candy from a new born baby ( I would not do that to my own son, mind you  :roll: ).

Moral of the story is if your opponent ask for a bid, you know you already won. Agree to his terms, bid 0 and watch his world fall appart. :evil:

There’s only 1 way to prove this.  Come on TripleA, host a game that says “Dice/Tech 1-1 No Bid Adv/Exp Players Only”, and see how much you win.  See if you can win more than 50%.  I think you will be lucky to win 25%.

If it were true that the game were balanced or close to balanced….wouldn’t there be SOMEONE specializing in Allies and willing to test themselves on the TripleA server at 6 or lower (playing dice)?  Correct me if I’m wrong, but to the best of my knowledge there is no one.

I played many games of Revised as Axis without a bid.  As Func notes, it is a great deal harder to win as Allies in AA50 without a bid than it was to win with Axis in Revised without a bid.

The bid simply ensures that both sides consider the game a fair contest.  There is nothing more to it than that.

[Corbeau Blanc]

I certainly don’t specialise in allies but I don’t agree the game is not balanced.

I can play you here with battlemap if you want as long you are in no hurry.
Between work, my son and my current tournament of planets4, it does not leave me much time without talking of working on the house.

I could probably manage a full round per week ( 3 nations turns ) from work. Just start a game if interested as you will be axis , no bid.

[Zhukov44]

Ok I sent you a pm.

[axis_roll]

oh, can you post a link to the game?

I’d like to watch the story with the Moral that a Zero Bid is a win for the allies.
I want to watch the axis ‘world fall appart (sic)’

[Zhukov44]

One game doesn’t prove much…but for what it’s worth…

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=18450.0

Nice start for Germany but I went with a pretty conservative approach.

[a44bigdog]

@axis_roll:

oh, can you post a link to the game?

I’d like to watch the story with the Moral that a Zero Bid is a win for the allies.
I want to watch the axis ‘world fall appart (sic)’

Aren’t we playing one of these now  :-D

Personally I think a bid is not really necessary for '41, I know a lot of players have a different take but that is mine. '42 definitely needs a bid but I have not messed around with them enough yet to for an opinion of how much.

As far as the original poster and wondering why you got the smack down. Play a few games here and you will figure that out. There are literally people from all over the world playing here and some darn sharp ones that have been playing AA games for a very long time.

[BulwFi]

Triple A is bugged and is awful to play. Get friends and play the REAL tabletop game.

[allweneedislove]

@BulwFi:

Triple A is bugged and is awful to play.

is this sarcasm?

Triplea is an amazing piece of software that allows you to play all variations of axis and allies for free. you can play realtime or play by email. it is quick and easy, unlike the antiquated battlemap.

i think everyone would agree the most fun is sitting around a table with friends, but to get your fix triplea is fantastic.

[war monger]

I have been playing A&A for about 25 years now but have never even heard od “bids”, could someone explain what they are and how they are used?