@joephillips There is no provision in the rules of the game for “annexing” territories. If you want to create house rules for this, it’s up to you what happens; however, when it comes to a hostile power, “annex” is just a diplomatic word for “attack”.
Why wait as Japan?
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I have received my copy last friday and played three games so far. We tried three options:
1. Japan waited three turns and only on their fourth turn they started to attack the allies, while having all but conquered China (most planes could be used against the poor Chinese). Japan lost because in the meantime UK and ANZAC conquered all of Dutch Indies and both got a lot of IPC in bonuses. UK had an income of about 37 for a couple of turns. Japan conquered a lot of islands but lost because UK and ANZAC had enough troops to never feel really threatened and Japan got outnumbered by allied forces.
2. Japan attacked immediatly. Japan conquered Hawaii turn 1 and destroyed the British BB and transports. Also Kwantung got captured (UK -8 IPC) and Guam, Celebes and some Chinese lands. Every US attack on Japanese Hawaiian fleet was countered and Jap capital ships were repaired thanks to Hawaii naval base. In the meantime three bombers were doing SBR every turn on India, so often the Brits could only afford one tank. Australia got invaded from the Caroline islands and Japanese subs were harrasing all coasts still in allied hands. Allied player gave up, after 5 victory cities were secured (Tokyo, Hongkong, Shanghai, Honolulu, Manila).
3. Japan attacks after one turn. US had all their forces put together on Hawaii. All fighters on land and tacs on carriers. Britain grabbed some Dutch islands and got BB back to India. In the fourth turn the US fleet got lucky and destroyed the largest Jap fleet near Carolines. After that the British felt confident and made an all out attack on the Jap fleet near Java and also won. The ANZAC fleet and airforce killed the last carrier near New Guinea and the war was won.
My careful conclusion is that Japan has the best chance of winning if it attacks in the very first turn, while the allied forces are scattered across the ocean. The US gets a +40 boost, but loses Manila + bonus (7) and probably Hawaii (1). And it means Japan gains 8 with Honolulu bonus. So really the US only gains 24. And Japan gets to invade the Indies and Hongkong, which means less IPC for Britain.
Any thoughts/comments?
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I think once the allies get used to a J1 strike it will be easily stopped. UK can get 12 ground units into china by UK2 if that happens and it will take until J3 before japan gets the income from the indies.
I think we will see a cat and mouse game, if UK goes after the indies, japan will strike J2, but it will all depend on what happens, should be interesting.
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How is the US only gaining 24? The bonus is added onto the income, not taken away from it. US IPC should be 50, and only minus the IPC value of any territory captured by the Japs, not including the bonus they lose. So if US shifts to a wartime economy with no losses in territories, its income should be higher than 50.
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My careful conclusion is that Japan has the best chance of winning if it attacks in the very first turn, while the allied forces are scattered across the ocean. The US gets a +40 boost, but loses Manila + bonus (7) and probably Hawaii (1). And it means Japan gains 8 with Honolulu bonus. So really the US only gains 24. And Japan gets to invade the Indies and Hongkong, which means less IPC for Britain.
Any thoughts/comments?
I agree with the idea of attacking Allies in J1,
but I think that you need all transports to take Honolulu on the the first turn;
Manila can be taken on the second
and some of the Dutch East Indies on the third… -
How is the US only gaining 24? The bonus is added onto the income, not taken away from it. US IPC should be 50, and only minus the IPC value of any territory captured by the Japs, not including the bonus they lose. So if US shifts to a wartime economy with no losses in territories, its income should be higher than 50.
His point is that the +40 ipc from west us is effectively reduced to +24 when tallied against gains made by Japan, thus, a 24 IPC gain on top of starting income, rather than a 40 ipc gain if you left hawaii/manilla alone.
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I just can’t see a J1 attack working. The allied income skyrockets while japan’s does not that much.
UK would go down to 13 true, anzac would only be at 10, but US would go up to 55, while Japan is sitting with, at most, in the 40s. Plus it wouldn’t be until J3 that she got the indies for the income lead. Combine that with very few units in the south and the UK could easily, and potentially, burst into china to keep them very alive and extremely annoying.
At most, the UK income can go up by 8 to 24 on UK1, ANZAC can only increase her income by 1 turn one, and that is only if the UK takes an island for there NO costing them 4 ipcs anyway. So max potential income increase by allies on turn 1 without a J1 war is 9 increase, plus 21+10+22 (not counting china because J1 doesn’t effect that) is 62. And to get those increases the UK will have to put her transports in harms way. The US fleet at SZ 35 has no where to go, with a proper J1 maneuvering the UK/ANZ fleet cannot rally in SZ 56 without being in danger, and Japan can threaten New Zealand/South Wales. And if UK attacks you turn 1, or helps china, you get to beat on them for a turn without angering the US.
The big thing to me though, is you only have about 2 turns to outproduce the US after declaring war. No matter what, you cannot outproduce them without taking the indies, or J3 at the earliest, but most likely around J4 or 5 you will get the income advantage. The US is just too close to japan not to worry about her.
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i think that japan should always consentrate on the american on J1 because they will have a huge fleet if left unchecked while the uk force can be easly delt with later
i say j1 destroy us fleet at hawaii, west coast and capture hawaii
then capture meny south east asian islands while also taking fic and hong kong
also try to destroy us fleet at the philipines
i wont get my game til christmas so this is just from observing the starting pictures. -
This all hinges on whether you take Honolulu J1. If you don’t, you cannot repair your caps J2. I was in this situation my second game. I had to lumber my capital ships back to my own ports which took me two turns of evasive maneuvers. It really sets you back, you definately need all three transports, even then its still not a lock.
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I don’t see how you can take Hawaii turn one… you have no transports within 2 spaces! Or do naval bases not work the same as in the old pacific?
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I don’t see how you can take Hawaii turn one… you have no transports within 2 spaces! Or do naval bases not work the same as in the old pacific?
AFAIK ships departing from a naval base get a +1 movement boost.
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Yes, naval bases increases naval movement by one, even in combat moves. So you can go to Hawaii from Japan in one turn.
My point is that with Hawaii in your hands on turn one you will get +6 IPC as Japan, destroyed one US transport, close to half their airforce and are able to repair your capital ships the next turn. In J2 you can send fighters to Hawaii (for scramble) and be a threat to US West Coast. All ships you send their on J1 will survive, because there is only a transport. But if you wait then all US ships and planes will be in the Hawaii area.
And Britain can become quite a pain in turn one. Their BB will be safe and they will get quite some income. They can also invade Dutch Guinea for the ANZAC +5 IPC bonus. ANZAC planes can be bundled to quite a powerful airforce, while in NZ they are harmless the first turn.
I must say I was quite lucky (as I originally said), so therefore I am really curieus as to what your opinions and experiences are. So far quite mixed! On my next game as Japan I will try it again, to see if I am still going to win.
And to comment on one of the posts from Vareel:
How can the Allies stop Japan on J1? Japan starts and there is nothing the Allies can do, except throw a lot of ones. The reaction of the Allies can be to help China. But the Brits will help China on turn three too. But then with a massive army they have build with the Malaya/Hongkong bonus and some Dutch islands. And with a DoW you can start bombing India on J2/J3. -
Nope, look at seazone 16 and 29. Hawaii in that route is the third seazone from Japan.
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We finally played our first game last friday and I have to say I had my worst outing in any AA game. I played as UK and ANZAC. Japan did not attack in round 1 but consolidated their forces in China, Kwangi and FIC. Caroline Island was left with 1 infantry and no ships so a fleet with 1 battleship, 2 carriers, 1 crusier, 1 destroyer 1 sub and 2 transports were sent heading towards India with almost all of Japan’s planes.
My first mistake was not asking USA to move the destroyer to Malaya to stall the advancing Japan fleet. My second mistake was buying 1 aircraft carrier. Since Japan sent such a big fleet with so many planes south for KIF, there is no way UKs fleet will survive. In hindsight seeing this move i should have bought all land. On J3 India was taken over. My third mistake was not remembering UK’s +5 NO in round 1 for Malaya and Kwangtung
Thinking back, even if I did not commit these mistakes as UK, would this have made a difference with Japan sending such a big force (the amount of planes and hitting at 4s now with tactical bombers) down to India and USA starting with 34 IPC in two rounds of play since Japan attacked on J2? The boost in income to USA comes at the end of USA2 and real forces from this boost gets on the board on USA3 and to Hawaii on USA4. With Japan buying at least one carrier per turn and not spending any on airforce, Japan will still have a superior naval force into round 4 and beyond and by this time India will most likely have fallen.
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@Frontovik:
so you get +1 move at harbors? but japan is 4seazones away from honolulu
And the seazone that your ships are in does not count as a movement space, and the harbor does not count as a seperate seazone.
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Even in India gets taken by Japan all is not lost. If Japan commited so much to achieve that (and Brits buying all land) then they are less likely to win against US, China and ANZAC. ANZAC can take Carolines and Dutch islands. US can mass their fleet and get ready to strike.
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I just played a game yesterday where I was Japan, and I can now see a of advantages to waiting at leat one turn before attacking.
Although it is fairly easy to destroy the US fleet if Japan attacks on thier first turn it is also very easy to destory it if Japan attacks on its second, third, or even forth turn since the US is only making 17 IPC each round.
Japan initial position has limted abilty to attack ANZAC and UK forces and resource rich dutch territories. However it is vital that these are taken. Besides the US western cost the east indies are the most vlaue peice of realistate in the game. If Japan waits a turn or so it is a much better position of taking these territories and capturing the very strategicly important mayala penisula which can become quite a thorn in the side of Japan if not dealt with quickly.
Lastly, China is no small threat and if Japan wants to retain control of shanghai and hong knong let alon conquer china they are going to have to contribute a large amount of resources to that front. Waiting a few turns might give you more time defeat china before you have to start dealing with the navies of the world.
Although I have taken Hawwai aswell as manila and hong kong and had aquired a large amphibous assault force that could have either gone after India or Sydney, two blunders convicned me to surrender on the fifth turn. The first 3 turns it looked like I was going to win, but by the end I was regreting my early attack
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Today I played my fourth game. I was Japan and the allies were played by one person.
I wanted to check if waiting to DoW is worth the while. I waited for two turns and concentrated everything on China and a build-up on the Carolines. China was getting smashed quite a bit, because I used about half my airforce with my ground attacks.
After my second turn the Brits attacked me! It cost me two transports and a couple of smaller ships. Also they reinforced the Chinese with some inf. ANZAC couldn’t do much and because of the massive build up in the Carolines they were quite scared and put their IPC in defensive troops.
In my third turn I had the luxury to only concentrate on the Brits (and China). ANZAC wasn’t posing a threat and the US wasn’t in the war yet. So I destroyed about two thirds of their fleet and captured Hongkong and Borneo. It did cost me some ships. After that I was slowly advancing in the Dutch Indies and invaded New Zealand from the Carolines. I played a cat and mouse game with the US, so they never got to a full assault. My Caroline fleet was too powerful (largely because of the airbase with at least 6 planes sitting on top of it).
We ran out of time so we decided that the last major sea battle would decide which side won. The British fleet (BB, CV + fig + tac, sub, DD, CL, 2 bom) fought my western fleet (2 BB, CV + 2 fighters, tranny, DD). I won with a damaged BB left. By that time I also had all the Dutch Indies and all of China. And none of the allies had any NO.
So I won that one too, so it can be done, of course. Although I don’t what would have happened if the Brits hadn’t attacked and had another turn of a large income and captured another Dutch island.
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Although it is fairly easy to destroy the US fleet if Japan attacks on thier first turn it is also very easy to destory it if Japan attacks on its second, third, or even forth turn since the US is only making 17 IPC each round.
Actually I think the US is making 22 (they get a +5 bonus for holding PI). Similarly, the Brits are getting their +5 for Malaya/Kwangtung. If the Brits push and take 2 of the DEI territories on UK1 I think Japan is left with no choice but to attack by J2. If the Brits can take the last of the 4 islands for their 2nd bonus I dont see any way for Japan to easily dominate the sea of SE Asia. Of course if the Brits move to take those islands they are exposed to Japanese attack piecemeal (which further encourages Japan to hit them).
So far, I think a J2 attack makes the most sense, but of course that is dependent on what the Allies do. If the Allies dont take any over action in the DEI, then Japan might do well to hold off until J3 when she can have all of her duckies in a row.
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Although it is fairly easy to destroy the US fleet if Japan attacks on thier first turn it is also very easy to destory it if Japan attacks on its second, third, or even forth turn since the US is only making 17 IPC each round.
Actually I think the US is making 22 (they get a +5 bonus for holding PI). Similarly, the Brits are getting their +5 for Malaya/Kwangtung. If the Brits push and take 2 of the DEI territories on UK1 I think Japan is left with no choice but to attack by J2. If the Brits can take the last of the 4 islands for their 2nd bonus I dont see any way for Japan to easily dominate the sea of SE Asia. Of course if the Brits move to take those islands they are exposed to Japanese attack piecemeal (which further encourages Japan to hit them).
So far, I think a J2 attack makes the most sense, but of course that is dependent on what the Allies do. If the Allies dont take any over action in the DEI, then Japan might do well to hold off until J3 when she can have all of her duckies in a row.
Exactly, it will be a cat and mouse game. How far does each power put there neck out to sucker the other into attacking them. If UK/AN go after the islands then japan should declare turn 2. If the UK pulls back to india with navy and buys a spare destroyer or sub, then maybe japan should wait. If there are a few vunerable transports out there for the UK to attack, perhaps they should. I know I plan on landing 1 or 2 strat bombers in Siam J1 after moving the inf into FIC to bait the UK into attacking me. If they do, great, if they don’t, I have 1-2 bombers that can reach SZ 56 or SZ 39 J2. Eh, would probably leave 1 Inf there just to kill a UK plane, maybe both.
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What if japan just kills China for the first 3 turns and gets in position for American entry by a large pile of pieces right off FIC, then India would fall on turn 4-5.
Japan kills one enemy at a time knocking out 2 before turn 6, then the showdown with USA?
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