Revisiting G2 Barbarossa

[mainah]

@kyle47
BM4 is 16-22. I think. Some one mentioned it’s been creeping up a bit, might be a bit higher.

OOB - 45-60.

[kyle47]

@mainah Yes, that could totally change the map. My group can’t beat me when I play the Allies without one, so I don’t get bids. :)

[MarshmallowofWar]

@kyle47 said in Revisiting G2 Barbarossa:

@MarshmallowofWar Good thoughts. I have run this attack quite a bit now. I disagree with the “profound weakness in Europe”.

By “profound weakness”, I’m making a couple of assumptions. First, that every available ground force that can make Bransk by G5 is there (including the Romanian infantry) and second, that all your builds for G2, G3, and G4 (probably strat bombers) have first priority of eliminating Russia as opposition. That doesn’t leave a lot of ground forces in Europe proper, hence the phrasing. While it’s true that your air force and limited ground forces can hold off the US/UK for a bit, on G4 it’ll be ground forces by itself but most of that has been shipped off to Russia at that point.

You might ask why the US would go Europe-first. The answer is because your G1 build telegraphs your intentions.

It would be interesting to see this in play.

Marsh

[kyle47]

@MarshmallowofWar ah I see, that would make a weak Europe. However my G3, G4, and G5 purchases are almost entirely infantry in order to defend Europe. Depending on the amount of reinforcement Moscow gets from the British, Germany may opt for a few tanks out of Ukraine/Novgorod. Ukraine is preferable because of it’s position, but mech units of any kind can be helpful out of Novgorod at this point.

I am also assuming a Middle Earth style British player (factory in Persia, naval base, 2-1 alternating transport shuck from South Africa) and haven’t play tested this against a U.S./U.K. D-day. That would be an interesting stress test, since you are committed to the G2 post purchase. I think the U.S.S.R. and Calcutta would ultimately be more vulnerable in the D-day scenario… but I’m biased.

Appreciate the feedback!

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@kyle47 if you are spending most of your G3-G5 income on defending Western Europe, the Allies should be able to hold Moscow and the Middle East as you don’t have enough forces to overcome the final defense lines. Get a few bombers during G3 and G4 as they are so versatile. You can buy units at the front lines from G4 and onwards.

I like having a dozen or more German bombers by the mid-game. That makes it challenging to simultaneously protect Moscow, Middle East / Egypt, a Western European foothold, and the Atlantic fleet. Dark Skies is unfair!

Axis should be able to win 90% of the time for an OOB game with no bid when the players have experience. Join the League so you can go against stronger opponents and find flaws in your game plans for matches which are more balanced.

The evolving strategies have allowed the Allied bid to creep up to the 50-ish range. One key evolution I saw recently was leaving Normandy in French control. That prevents the Allies from using that territory as a pivotal foothold. Very annoying.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Revisiting G2 Barbarossa:

One key evolution I saw recently was leaving Normandy in French control. That prevents the Allies from using that territory as a pivotal foothold. Very annoying.

You’re welcome :-) I take full credit for this.

Marsh

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@MarshmallowofWar

The aircraft in Poland and Slovakia Hungary cannot reach any ships, so they’ll have to attack Paris.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@kyle47

Curious strategy. I might try it.

Do you think it would work if the Italian and Japanese players are ineffective?

As in, no serious Japanese pressure and KGF?

I’ve been trying a game on TripleA (low luck) where all the Allies are Hard AI and Japan and Italy are Fast AI (inferior), while I play as Germany.

So I need to carry the Axis, and that requires a strategy that doesn’t heavily depend on Italy or Japan.

This strategy doesn’t require Italy, but how much does it not require Japan? Thank you!

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@SuperbattleshipYamato almost any strategy will work against the AI or yourself.

Against a skilled opponent, Japan needs to grab the money islands and Malaysia by turn 3, and then capture India not too long afterwards. That will force the United States to split spending on the two theaters or risk defeat when Hawaii or Australia fall.

[SuperbattleshipYamato]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris

I know, but as I said, Japan is ineffective due to being run against an AI.

It’s just Germany (side note, I actually did do one where everyone was an AI except Japan, and they won by turn 4 using @The_Good_Captain ’s J1 attack).

[TheVeteran]

@kyle47 here’s your issue max attack Vs max defense for a G5 assault doesn’t capture Moscow. A G6 attack on Moscow is a much better plan which gets more German units to Moscow than soviet .

[Radar]

@TheVeteran perhaps I don’t understand some of the more intricate parts of the game, but if you attack Moscow on turn 6 instead of turn 5, the Russians can add an additional 10 units to defend Moscow.

What will the Germans add to the fight by waiting an extra turn?

Is it really worth it when 10 more Russian units show up?

[TheVeteran]

@Radar how do you figure 10 more units for Russia ? I’ve played this through myself. G6 was the better option.

[Radar]

@TheVeteran
Russian starting IPC is 37, they certainly lost some from German attack, at least -3 maybe -10 depending on how far from Moscow the Germans march. The Russians might have taken Finland and Norway +5, with an additional set of bonuses +6, they may have got the +5 sea zone 125 bonus. (*And that’s assuming Russians didn’t sneak into Romania, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Albania, or Yugoslavia each worth 4-6 after bonuses.)

Russian IPC could range from 27-50 (or more*) if I’m doing the math right here.

On the low end, that’s 9 troops, but likely 10 units including some infantry & tanks.

Not only that, but that’s an extra turn the UK has to land fighters in Moscow.

I ask respectfully, but am I missing something?

It seems like the extra units the Germans can bring on turn 6 isn’t worth the extra units the Russians can produce, or the UK can fly over.

[AndrewAAGamer]

If Russia is taking Finland, let alone Norway, than the Axis player is not playing properly. Russia should never get the $3 NO bonus for any territory in Europe. That is why they usually send troops to the Middle East to get the NO down there.

If you are playing with no Bid then really anything you are experiencing is irrelevant. The Bid should be in the 50-60 range.

[kyle47]

@SuperbattleshipYamato said in Revisiting G2 Barbarossa:

@kyle47

Curious strategy. I might try it.

Do you think it would work if the Italian and Japanese players are ineffective?

As in, no serious Japanese pressure and KGF?

I’ve been trying a game on TripleA (low luck) where all the Allies are Hard AI and Japan and Italy are Fast AI (inferior), while I play as Germany.

So I need to carry the Axis, and that requires a strategy that doesn’t heavily depend on Italy or Japan.

This strategy doesn’t require Italy, but how much does it not require Japan? Thank you!

The plan is held up by the idea that Japan and Germany are exerting pressure around the same time, on two pivotal victory cities. Usually around round 5/6. Italy is likely not to have much to do, but that’s mostly because of how Germany uses their troops, which leaves the Med vulnerable.

[kyle47]

@TheVeteran said in Revisiting G2 Barbarossa:

@kyle47 here’s your issue max attack Vs max defense for a G5 assault doesn’t capture Moscow. A G6 attack on Moscow is a much better plan which gets more German units to Moscow than soviet .

Great! I’m not sure how you account for the 6 infantry from Buryatia, but ok. If you have better odds G6, take the better odds. The idea is to exert pressure on Calcutta and Moscow at the same time. Not that Moscow must fall G5.

Honestly, if all you did was hold the line from Archangel to Caucasus, you’re in great shape already.

[Radar]

@AndrewAAGamer Fair enough, but with a bid of up to 60, that’s theoretically up to 20 extra Russians if that is your goal, and there are ove 20 spaces to put a Russian infantry that will return to Moscow by turn 4 (Or shoot at German in defense on the way). But on a G3 attack, that’s up to 20 extra Russians as a bid, and up to 10 extra bought every turn.

I’m not trying to be rude or contrarian, would you please tell me the piece I’m missing?

What is it about G3 that gives the German the advantage over the extra Russians purchased in Moscow?

[kyle47]

@AndrewAAGamer said in Revisiting G2 Barbarossa:

If Russia is taking Finland, let alone Norway, than the Axis player is not playing properly. Russia should never get the $3 NO bonus for any territory in Europe. That is why they usually send troops to the Middle East to get the NO down there.

If you are playing with no Bid then really anything you are experiencing is irrelevant. The Bid should be in the 50-60 range.

We are just playing friendly home games, no bids. Although, we have considered implementing bids in the future, we have yet to do so. I think my play group would LOVE that type of bid. They are getting tired of losing ;)

[kyle47]

@Radar said in Revisiting G2 Barbarossa:

@AndrewAAGamer Fair enough, but with a bid of up to 60, that’s theoretically up to 20 extra Russians if that is your goal, and there are ove 20 spaces to put a Russian infantry that will return to Moscow by turn 4 (Or shoot at German in defense on the way). But on a G3 attack, that’s up to 20 extra Russians as a bid, and up to 10 extra bought every turn.

I’m not trying to be rude or contrarian, would you please tell me the piece I’m missing?

What is it about G3 that gives the German the advantage over the extra Russians purchased in Moscow?

Based on his assumptions about the subsequent attacks and income bases. Strategic bombing, etc. There are a myriad of things that could change the overall numbers, favoring a G6. I tend to think that time is an advantage for the Allies, but with a bid, that could change dramatically.