@clamoxyl Welcome to the forum.
Have you looked at https://boardgamegeek.com/ ?
Good luck.
Blockhouse Talk 101
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@Imperious:
Not problem solved for 20 invasions of France, Karelia, and Caucasus each game.
We’re talking about the new upcoming 1940 games aren’t we? Maybe your games of A&A:Europe play out differently than mine?
@Imperious:
This can lead to long lags of all building and no fighting, or worse yet a complete stalemate.
This is your central point. It will defiantly lead to fewer invasions where double collection occurs which causes both sides to buy more units, hence more dice rolling, hence longer game.
The old 1981 Nova edition solved the double collection problem. The turn you capture a territory you would collect income from the opposing player instead of the bank. That way a war ravaged territory generates no income instead of double.
I’m also not convinced that each side buying more units slows the game down. Nor have I ever played a very long game and credited the length to too many small battles or too much dice rolling. Battles and dice do not make up the bulk of a turn.
@Imperious:
With the blockhouse people will make sure they have enough to take the spot from counterattack, which leads to a quicker result, rather than piecemeal attempts to secure the same territory over and over again with NO RESULT. I feel the game will have a quicker result.
There will always be dead zones in A&A.
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Here’s a new take on a blockhouse unit:
Cost One IPC.
Move zero
Attack zero
Defense zero
If you buy three of these proceeding a battle, you are down one third of a hit in the first round. But going into the second round (assuming the battle is large enough to lose all three the first round) you’ve lost three one IPC blockhouses instead of three three IPC infantry units. Minus the infantry you could have bought instead of the blockhouse your net gain is two infantry, giving an instant return of two thirds of a hit! Minus the third of a hit you lost in round one, your up one third of a hit.
Of course your opponent will get extra fire power on round two, but only to the tune of an extra one third of a unit. This this is probably an attacking infantry, so your opponent only gains one third of one sixth of a hit, or one eighteenth. Since you gained a whole third, my blockhouse (in the correct proportion) proves more efficient than defending infantry.
However, I think the above stats may still be overpowered! Defending infantry is the most combat efficient thing that IPCs can buy. I question the merit of adding a defense piece that’s more efficient still. The greater the gap in efficiency between defense and attack, the more likely stalemate ensues. If you’re not convinced consider the following extreme unit:
Super Defender - attack zero, defense six, cost one.
Add this to the game and nobody will ever capture a capitol again - complete guaranteed stalemate. Obviously a less extreme defending unit will have a less extreme effect.
Right now the most efficient attack force is infantry plus artillery. Twenty one IPCs buys six units at two for an average of two hits a round. Twenty one IPCs in defense buys seven infantry defending at two, for an average of two and two thirds hits per round. That’s an extra two thirds of a hit per round plus extra cannon fodder. So as the attacker (all things being equal) I need an extra 3.5 IPCs a turn on the defender for every twenty one IPCs we each earn just to keep up. That means producing 116 2/3 per cent of what the defender produces, just to break even. I need more to actually gain an advantage.
Should we give the defender an even better way to spend those 21 IPCs, I will need even more than 116.6666667 % of their economy to gain an edge in battle. If this number gets too high, the game breaks. I simply suggest keeping this in mind when designing a new and better defending unit.
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Not problem solved for 20 invasions of France, Karelia, and Caucasus each game.
We’re talking about the new upcoming 1940 games aren’t we? Maybe your games of A&A:Europe play out differently than mine?
No actually were talking about the global games AAE40 and AAP40 can be combined in one game. In AAR Typically the Allies retake france, get pushed out and retake it and back and forth because the game allows for double collection. If you add up all the times where this happens in a typical game it is basically a time waster because if it was not encouraged by the rules players would not be doing it and not rolling as much. Secondly, the double collection results in greater piece density which also means more ‘stuff’ to fight with’ hence more rolling.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on September 14, 2009, 06:58:43 pm
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This can lead to long lags of all building and no fighting, or worse yet a complete stalemate.This is your central point. It will defiantly lead to fewer invasions where double collection occurs which causes both sides to buy more units, hence more dice rolling, hence longer game.
After playtesting it over 5 years i can say it leads to shorter games, because once you got a huge army in france and Germany cant do anything about it, it poses a real problem. Before UK barely takes it ( just to collect the money and for no other reason), Germany retakes it with overwhelming might, then pulls back and leaves a token force. It does this because it knows its builds can cover the attack and knows that it will also take advantage of the trick in double income collection and this process repeats.
Rather a situation where you model it a little bit better and at least introduce a unit that can cause fear for the token British raids. A Blockhouse like what we have in AA-D-Day can replace a huge army with the possibility of making such raids a big sting and preclude these nuisance raids.
The old 1981 Nova edition solved the double collection problem. The turn you capture a territory you would collect income from the opposing player instead of the bank. That way a war ravaged territory generates no income instead of double.
I’m also not convinced that each side buying more units slows the game down. Nor have I ever played a very long game and credited the length to too many small battles or too much dice rolling. Battles and dice do not make up the bulk of a turn.
Larry wont change the rules on income collection. However, a blockhouse may help by other means make such gambles harder and get the allies to make more serious attempts to retake france. Also. if you have more units it does make the game longer. Next time you play add in 50,000 more pieces and see how that goes. That proves it makes it longer, so by inference a game where you got 30 extra pieces also takes longer. Each combat where the allies invade and get wiped out in various invasions also takes longer. If they were in UK just building up and landed with the Americans, i bet the result is Germany stays put and tries to get in its counter the following turn, which may be too late.
Quote from: Imperious Leader on September 14, 2009, 06:58:43 pm
With the blockhouse people will make sure they have enough to take the spot from counterattack, which leads to a quicker result, rather than piecemeal attempts to secure the same territory over and over again with NO RESULT. I feel the game will have a quicker result.There will always be dead zones in A&A.
As long as the game allows for double collection, then yes. My issue is to minimize these because its a function of the game and not anything remotely realistic.
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here we go, one + karma to you zooooma for your blockhouse idea.
Blockhouse: cost 1 IPC, move 0, def 0, att 0
This Blockhouse represent force protection. You spend 1 IPC in concrete just to protect your men and weapons. I totally love it.
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Agreed, great idea!
So this unit can be purchased and placed on any territory?
I can see many uses for it, mainly cannon fodder!
here we go, one + karma to you zooooma for your blockhouse idea.
Blockhouse: cost 1 IPC, move 0, def 0, att 0
This Blockhouse represent force protection. You spend 1 IPC in concrete just to protect your men and weapons. I totally love it.
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It is too cheap . It does not model the cost of what its said to represent. Hitler could not afford to build his Atlantic Wall. It took years to get ready even if he did. The french spend an incredible amount of money on the Maginot line fortifications. The rule makes these things seem like you can just “whip the thing together in minutes”
The idea needs to do the following:
- have more than one tier in order to allow for different types of defenses….all under the same idea
- effect or be effected by the number of Infantry AND Artillery
- have a special rule for sea invasions as opposed to adjacent land combat
- reflect the fact that its costly and can potentially cause your opponent huge problems…modeling the psychological effect of buying it and the fear of attacking it.
- contain a counter unit ( antidote)
A) two tiers 6 IPC each- ( modeling both light and heavy defenses…e.g. Maginot and pillboxes all in the same rule
B) Each INF and ART defending adds to its potency
C) Sea Invasions it fires preemptively after SB, Land attacks +1 to each INf and Art on defense
D) Cost 12 IPC and only works in the first round. This can be a boom or bust which is the factor in warfare.
E) Airborne landed can hit each tier on a roll of 1 in the first round ( performed right after SB, but before Fortification defense rolls -
@cannon:
Agreed, great idea!
So this unit can be purchased and placed on any territory?
I can see many uses for it, mainly cannon fodder!
here we go, one + karma to you zooooma for your blockhouse idea.
Blockhouse: cost 1 IPC, move 0, def 0, att 0
This Blockhouse represent force protection. You spend 1 IPC in concrete just to protect your men and weapons. I totally love it.
Terrible idea, for $6 you get an infantry that takes 4 hits to kill.
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It’s the land battleship!!! :-D
@Brain:
@cannon:
Agreed, great idea!
So this unit can be purchased and placed on any territory?
I can see many uses for it, mainly cannon fodder!
here we go, one + karma to you zooooma for your blockhouse idea.
Blockhouse: cost 1 IPC, move 0, def 0, att 0
This Blockhouse represent force protection. You spend 1 IPC in concrete just to protect your men and weapons. I totally love it.
Terrible idea, for $6 you get an infantry that takes 4 hits to kill.
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For the same price as the $24 battleship, you could buy one $3 infantry and twenty-one $1 blockhouses and in effect have a 22 hit infantry piece. You would never be able to conquer that territory.
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You would never be able to conquer that territory.
yep exactly. Next idea.
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Hey didn’t Larry say that blockhouses are not going to be in the game?
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That’s the rumor.
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Thank goodness. People didnt actually BUILD those things during the war…its innacurate and more importantly ruins game balance…makes it too WWI
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But that’s the point of the BB vs Carrier with 2 fighters. The carrier force should be better in some situations and in the game most people buy the Carriers because they already know they can use the planes they have and make this a better buy. But in some situations like small islands such as Malta and Gibraltar you need something like this. Japan made a living at taking islands and turning them into hollowed out mountains of places to hide. These Blockhouses represent all the various fortifications that may or may not be viable depending on the situation. Also, the game is supposed to model things like Maginot and since this will be totally ignored these games will have Germans pour right across the border like nothing existed with no provision to make it somewhat realistic. I don’t even use the term “blockhouse” except as a convenience. To me it represents field fortifications ( trenches, pill box, gun emplacements, walls, fortified zone, defensive zone, whatever). I think the game deserves something to represent these types of defenses, just like the AA gun is represented. Both are viable. If the game has no provision for anything of this type, its lacking in major characteristic of this warfare.
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IL You are right, however I dont think they should be able to be BUILT. Just destroyed. It took the japanese a long time and a lot of people to hollow out mountains, and turn them into fortresses. Compared to the amount of time it takes to destroy them. The maginoit line took years to build up, and it took a signifigant amount of the french military to uphold it. I agree there should be natural defenses, but I think it would complicate gameplay, and it wouldnt make much sense, the amount of time it takes to train infantry is much shorter (and cheaper) than it takes to build a fortress. (but I can be wrong I have been wrong before). I think it should be natural defenses, not something you can just build in a turn. For a relatively low amount of IPC. Remember IPC isnt “money” per se, its man hours spent on whatever is being built. If they can be “built” (blockhouses) I think it should cost 15 IPC for three turns. To discourage players from doing something that in reality….wouldnt have ben done.
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so at roughly 6 months per turn, the Japanese need only hold an island for 1 turn, then they can build a blockhouse and place it on the next turn. Territories owned at the beginning of the game can purchase blockhouses Turn 2 and place them on Turn 3. That can cover the time aspect.
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ok thats fine, but 15 bucks for getting a 2 or less for free is too much. The AA gun does a 1 for 6 IPC and they can hit planes, so a two should be 12 IPC.
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IL You are right, however I dont think they should be able to be BUILT. Just destroyed. It took the japanese a long time and a lot of people to hollow out mountains, and turn them into fortresses. Compared to the amount of time it takes to destroy them. The maginoit line took years to build up, and it took a signifigant amount of the french military to uphold it. I agree there should be natural defenses, but I think it would complicate gameplay, and it wouldnt make much sense, the amount of time it takes to train infantry is much shorter (and cheaper) than it takes to build a fortress. (but I can be wrong I have been wrong before). I think it should be natural defenses, not something you can just build in a turn. For a relatively low amount of IPC. Remember IPC isnt “money” per se, its man hours spent on whatever is being built. If they can be “built” (blockhouses) I think it should cost 15 IPC for three turns. To discourage players from doing something that in reality….wouldnt have ben done.
It takes a long time to build production factories as well, but I guess that you have no problem with the rules for these.
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how bout keep it at 12 ipc
first turn pay 4 IPC, get Blockhouse next turn but it only gives a free 2 or less for defending artillery
Pay another 4 IPC wait next turn get both Art and Inf a free 2 or less in opening phase4 turns to get total benefit.
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that sounds fair.
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