Preferred option to stall Japanese expansion.

[souL]

I have started employing it when I see Russians stacking up against me as well… getting boots on the mainland is key.  Still, if you’re working a long-term KJF, -7 IPC to JPN and +7 to US could be a very big deal.  It’s a shame there’s no really good way for the Allies to exploit Phi being left open J1.  A lot can also go wrong with leaving Phi.

I’ve been monkeying around with ways to counter J1’s bur grab… I’ve come up with a few things that are interesting, if not implausible.  It’s based on the idea that you have to stay as aggressive as you can against them if they decide not to get their economy up to speed.

[a44bigdog]

There are some things I like about that souL and some I do not.

I welcome an Indian IC by the UK as Japan. I find it to be more of a drain on the UK’s resources than anything else in the long run. Once the UK builds the Indian IC they MUST defend it. All Japan has to do is not get overly excited about such and simply out muscle the UK and India will fall.

I also do not like a heavy Bury stack and push into Manchuria. I find this simple as Japan to clean up. I prefer to leave 1 infantry in Bury and consolidate the rest in Stanovoj. This keeps Japan from grabbing Bury with 1 infantry and can lead to liberation of Bury by Russia after Japan takes it lightly.

If the Philippines are left open I will fly the Hawaiian fighter there Just to up Japan’s commitment.

I do like feeding Russian Infantry to China. It slows Japan down and ups their commitment to what is other wise a quick advance to Russia’s doorstep.

I also like pestering Japan with the US Navy. Japanese units that have to attack US units in the Pacific are not free to go elsewhere. Even buying Navy with the US can be beneficial if all it does is make Japan spend money on fleet units.

I find it is less a problem with the Godzilla Japan with their income as opposed to all the ground units they have dumped into Asia or Africa that is the problem with an ignored Japan.

Now some of all that is probably just a play style difference, but hey if it has been working for you more power to you. Anything beats realizing Japan is making 70 IPCs and has as many units on the map as the rest of the worlds combined.  :-D

[souL]

The India complex is not only possible to defend, it can be made nearly likely.  The idea behind the bry stack is to FORCE jpn to be able to answer 7 inf bry -man.  That’s part of keeping those 2 trn from going from sz 61 -> sz 37 unload bur.  If they go to bur they can stop the IC or at least slow its emergence.  In sz 50 they’re in position to go back to sz 62 and unload.  in sz 37 they are not.  It’s all about keeping jpn honest.

Landing a ftr in phi is the other thing I’ve really been kicking around.  Is it better going to phi and dying, or is it better going haw -> aus -> ind and reinforcing ind some more?  It’s clearly dead in phi, and might not even up the commitment.

I’ve been working on “splitting the middle” with the US a lot, concentrating on trying to control sz 51.  Any time the US can keep a foothold there it does a few things:

1.  5 IPC for Britain.  Obvious one. 
2.  Air base.  Such a good central location in the Pacific theater.  I like to “color scope” maps, and the coverage of a bmb in the Carolines lights up most of the Atlantic in the areas it can over (assuming control over the entire north american continent.
3.  Threats.  Too hard to answer so many threats for the Japanese.  Japan is directly threatened, along with their big money islands.  Their navy HAS to rally to this sz and control it.  That’s why on US2 I suggest getting everything you can to sz 51.

As long as you’re FORCING jpn to answer threats (man on J2, sz 51 on J3) and with different types of resources each turn, in different areas of the world, it seriously tests both the flexibility and pure capacity of Japan.  They start with a lot, but the quicker you tax it the more difficult it is to replace.  It’s why 7 inf bry -> man is so key.  It’s 21 IPC and 7@2 just for japan to recover IPCs they already had.  Japan has to give you something.  When ground forces are going north, they’re not going toward an India complex, and as the game progresses they’re not even going toward FIC which becomes a British/Russian target.  They’re not going toward Australia which is involved in 2 NOs.  If you can catch the navy in sz 62 because they need to transport lots of troops, the American navy can go to sz 46, threatening sum, burn, and phi.

@the British cash split.  Think about the territory they defend.  ind 3, aus & bur 2, per nze ngu 1.  That’s 11.  That’s 2 inf and an arm.  Think about what they do for Russia.  With a simple commitment of about 4-5 inf initally, they’ve got 1 less choke point.

How do you deal with having a little bit less money in the Atlantic with the British?  Don’t make any mistakes.  Either fortify your fleet and make sure it won’t get sunk before leaving sz 2, or just abandon it for the most part.  You can take the easy way out.  Build 2 bmb and an inf with your leftover money, simultaneously threaten to destroy the Italian navy while bombing the Germans into the stone age.  The Americans don’t have to COMPLETELY abandon that theater, either.  They start with some units over there, and if you’re gentle with them, they can still have an effect in the Atlantic.  Also bmb can be built in wus and flown to gbr on the subsequent turn, if they’re not immediately attacking in the Pac.  I always try to mix in 1 bmb/turn with the Americans after US1, as it can threaten in the Pacific then go to Gbr as fast as if it were mobilized anywhere.

[a44bigdog]

Again I think a lot of my observed differences is a play style thing. I know I do a different J1 than is common.

A Buryatia stack moving into Manchuria is rather to eliminate on J2. Russia gains no benefit as far as income and it should be back in Japanese hands before the Chinese can possibly benefit by an additional infantry. Also once these far eastern Soviet forces are gone that is it as far as the North. There is now no opposition between Japan and Moscow.

I also do not like the idea of a US fighter in Australia at all. With my J1 opening I can hit Australia with up to 6 fighters provided none were lost on J1.

Again I do not like an Indian IC at all. I prefer to bring in UK troops heavy through Africa to archive this. I may occasionally reinforce the original UK force here with a Russian tank to delay or add to the expense for Japan.

I do think Russia benefits greatly from reinforcing China as this allows the Allies free troops in this theater.

I will agree with you on SZ51. I think US 2 is probably too early to venture forth, but at times the US can benefit from Naval battles it looses as long as it forces Japan to invest in ships and lost opportunities.

I also think one of the biggest thing Japan needs to do against an Indian IC is simply not over react. Time can be on Japan’s side if Japan plays its cards right. There is no need to attempt to seize India before Japan has the proper and sufficient resources to do so. Japan can play defensively in need be.

This last is something I have noticed with AA players. Call it strategic tunnel vision. A prime example is no one ever considers an Axis SBR campaign. They will sit there and watch Germany get hammered to dust while England or Russia is unscathed.

[gamerman01]

Excellent points, big dog, I agree with practically everything you said.  Obviously you are an experienced A&A player and have good sense.

[souL]

I think it’s unfair to say the Axis ignore strategic bombing.  The nature of AA41 is the Axis start with more units and less IPCs, so obviously you’re setting yourself up to earn money rather than take it from your enemies.  I know it sounds like the same thing, but if the Axis can’t fuel their war machine on the respective sides of the globe, no one’s coming to help them for the most part on J1.  Most tech games I get a tech and a bmb.  If it’s at all possible it lands in bur on J2 and SBRs cau on J3.

The man stack isn’t about income or the ease of which it gets destroyed.  The man stack is about forcing the Japanese, who’ve only built 17 IPCs worth of units since turn 1, diverting troops from either Phi/sz 50 or from sui back toward a territory worth 8 IPCs.  Ground units from Phi -> Man are not heading to SE Asia for at least 2 turns, they’re not heading toward Aus (which has been blocked this turn by a dd), and they’re not heading toward the US islands that hold monetary value for the US.

Assume:  J1 2 trn sz 61 -> sz 50 unload phi and twol
@Aus and American ftrs.  I like to land 2 there, putting 6 total units there.  If I’ve picked off your trn in sz 38 via Russian bmb and blocked the transport from sz 50 via dd sz 48, you can only likely get 1 trn there.  I’m most definitely ok with 2 inf from brn and your 6 ftr v my 3 inf art 2 ftr and aa.  You’re bringing 66 IPCs worth of value into this fight v. my 33, taking opening fire, and having to lose 10 cost units after the first ground hit.

Assume:  J1 2 trn sz 61 -> sz 37 unload bur twol.
I’m a proponent of J1’s 2 trn sz 61 -> sz 37 unload bur.  That allows the threat of those two either going to Ind or Aus, while if there’s still a trn in the north and one in sz 49 you’ve got a much more favorable 4 land units (and 6 aircraft is very dangerous) going to Aus while there are 4 assaulting Phi simultaneously.  Also I would assume up to 5 aircraft and 6 land units threaten Ind.  There are likely only 8-10 defenders in Ind at this point so I’d like Jpn’s chances in either place.  With this move Jpn’s sacrificed a 1st turn IPC swing of 14 to put themselves in a much more favorable position.

It’s just 1 more reason I like moving the American pac fleet, if I’m KJF, on turn 2.  Whether it be sz 46/sum, 51/car, or 59/Iwo, it’s just to force the Japanese into acting.  As long as I feel like the fleet I build in sz 56 can counterattack and destroy whatever remains of the fleet that defeated me, I’ll move them out.  I know the spectre of an American fleet can force the Japanese to sink money into the ocean, but I feel like putting pressure on a player can also cause mistakes.  With so many things coming at the Japanese from so many angles, sometimes the end game can be hard to see.  I don’t COUNT on them, but giving yourself the best opportunity to capitalize on a sub-optimal move is a good way to seal a game early.  Besides, if the Allies aren’t aggressive against the Axis very quickly, we know how games can end up.

It’s all about the transports.  If the Japanese allow the sz 62 trn to be unguarded either in 63, 62, or 61 without having both Fuk and Kwa, it needs to be sank by the bmb on wus.  The Japanese player wants to expand so fast it’s easy to catch stray transports.  Without a large number of them, places like Aus and Ind become much more easily defensible.

[axis_roll]

@souL:

I know the spectre of an American fleet can force the Japanese to sink money into the ocean, but I feel like putting pressure on a player can also cause mistakes.  With so many things coming at the Japanese from so many angles, sometimes the end game can be hard to see.  I don’t COUNT on them, but giving yourself the best opportunity to capitalize on a sub-optimal move is a good way to seal a game early.

My buddy gets mad when I do this too him so much, he’s become gun shy.  Actually I think he’s finally learned that I am setting traps for him.  Good players see the traps and ignore them.  Sometimes, the traps can be very tempting  though :evil:

[axis_roll]

souL is pointing out the opportunity cost(s) that Japan has to manage.  If you get to them early enough, Japan has some VERY DIFFICULT decisions to make, and those decisions (usually need to be on the safer side or Japan risks being slowed for two or more rounds) usually lead to more Allied income early on.

The slower Godzilla grows, the better.

[dondoolee]

Some things I do to deal with Japan (note: some options may be contradictory, as I am just listing various options that are on the table  when thinking about my Asian/ Pacific affairs)

RUSSIAN OPTIONS

1. Stack Bury: Perhaps you do this only for R1 and then move them out R2, but you will notice it does constrict Japan and limits Japanese options, it also sets up a significant Russian presence quickly. This option can be helped more with other allied strats going on to limit Japanese options.  Also notice, this costs Russia no IPC’s (though it can cost a turn in positioning units)

2. China pump:  Try pumping in 1-2 inf per turn into China.  Will only be useful in conjunction with other strats.  If you are doing NOTHING else to stop Japan, you may be wasting units.

3. Airforce:  Buy 1 or 2 fig, make sure they are on either Mos or the Cau.  This can open up a lot of options (I usually insist on having 1 fig on the Cau) at very little (if any cost) to your German campaign.

4. Persia/Cauc forces:  Do your best to make sure you have at least 2 Russian inf on Persia.  Also, try your hardest to make sure you have at least 1 Russian tank, and hopefully 1 Russian Fig on the Cau.  This not only can set up a 1-2 punch on India, but it also can Relieve the Brits from worrying about Italy holding Jordan.  Notice outside of the 2 inf, Russia is guarantying, no major unit commitment in Asia and Russia still has major units geared up against Germany.

5. Move Russian Far Eastern Forces to China:  This will put stacks of Russians in Asia at no expense to Russia.  It will take a couple turns to have a significant presence, and you will be giving up (very cheap) ground in Russia, but it is good for a cheap long term strategy.  Bonus: if necessity demands, due to the forces already being moved in that direction, the troops can be used to ward off Germany.  Also, if you have air in Moscow (or Cau) they can be used for counter attacks or maybe even defense.

UK/US OPTIONS

1. T1 United Fleet in NZ:  Perhaps land 1-2 US fig in Aus instead of on the Carrier.  If you wish landing 1 bomber in Aus/Hawaii would be useful as well.  If you care nothing for bombers in Europe, bring the second bomber to Hawaii.  The united fleet, while useful in its own right, works much better in conjunction with other  Asian/Pacific theatre tactics (such as the Bury stack).  The fleet can also be completely withdrawn after T1 or the (depending on the scenario) the centre piece for an allied pacific strategy (such as an Australian IC).

NOTE:  If you choose to withdraw your UK transport towards America, I would suggest in most cases, to leave all UK forces in  Australia and use the Canadians for transport cargo.  Make the Japanese pay as much as possible for taking Australia.

2. Western United States: Build 1 US transport in Western United States.  This is probably fairly obvious, but it should always be done if given the opportunity, it’s a cheap build anyway and the opportunities it can provide the allies with are great.  Also obvious: build  naval/ air units when you can spare them (this will vary wildly depending on your strategy, main objectives, and the way the Pacific develops; I can see no way of saying how  to develop a consistent US naval building strategy).   Make sure to try to build 1-2 inf per turn.  This is a must if any Japanese ships are within 2 turns from your cost, but you should always try and have something there just in case, and it may also lead to new opportunities in the Pacific.

3. Persia:  This is usually my “center piece” for my Allied Asian strategy.  Move all UK units that can reach  into Persia.  This assumes there is no unusual golden opportunities in Africa or building an IC that will last in India.   Japan will have a supply line problem  on the mainland, this will compound itself further if it chooses to build an IC or attack the Philippines J1 (I usually think attacking Phil J1 is non optimal anyway).  Stacking in Persia can put Japan in a decent bind in southern Asia.  If this is working in conjunction with Russian Fig and Arm in Cauc as well as Russian inf in Persia the headache for Japan grows.   Add to that, other areas where the allies may be stacking on T1; Japan all of the sudden  may have some hard decisions to make J2 and may find some of her theatres very hard to re-enforce.  Stacking in Persia does on occasion create an opportunity for a UK3 IC in India.  Also note, the Persian stack can retreat to Russia, if Russia (or the Persian stack) is in dire straits.

4. United Allied Fleet in SZ 12:  This too can be a centre piece when dealing with Japan.  An unsinkable fleet in SZ 12 puts a threat on France, Italy, and secures Africa.  Italy will most likley no longer be able to move her fleet (in fear of invasion) Germany will have to devote resources to protect France.  It saves the allies money by uniting two fleets (that can be easily and safely re enforced in needed) to work on more important things.  Don’t kill the Italian navy unless it is for some type of game winning deathblow (your positioning on your navy is too important) or if it is with air units that can be sacrificed.

Keep stacking N. Africa with US troops (unless going in for the kill) and every turn get 3-4 transports worth of gear for the UK and start sending them through N. Africa and March them towards India/Persia/Cauc (Armour builds for the Brits is probably a must, in order for this to be effective).  Also note: Russia can join in the fun in Africa to if it has inf preventing Italy from taking Jordan.   This keeps the UK’s income high, and allows it to bail out Russia if needed all the while threatening Europe with significant pressure.

5. Alternative use of bombers:  If the situation allows (you have the money/ are not dependant upon a European SBR campaign/ you have a Persian stack) Fly any built US bombers to Persia.  From here they can: a) Threaten the Japanese southern navy/ keep the navy “tight” b) mess with loose Japanes Trannies c) SBR Japanese IC’s in the area d) Threaten the Italian fleet. e) clear out any weak German stacks f) provide very expensive fodder for Russia if Russia is going to be attacked next turn. g) clear weak territories in China if needed e) provide a little defense for Persia (If you have 5 bombers sitting in Persia, that has to be taken into consideration by Japan)

6. Go North:  If for whatever reason the US can field and send a Pacific fleet up north, do it.  Perhaps Japan has moved her fleet far out of position not expecting it.  Perhaps you somehow are diverting Japans resources to other areas, whatever the reason, if you can start a successful campaign up north, do it.  It will pressure Japan herself, and relieve Russia/China while threatening major Japanese territory (most likely some with IC’s on them).  While there can be no “real true way” to use this strategy consistently, be aware of it.  Also be aware it is very difficult to pull off successfully.  Of course the minute you do this it is time to consider a KJF strat.

The best way you are going to pull it off is by an overconfident/ lazy Japanese player OR by putting decent pressure on Japan at multiple fronts distracting Japan from more basic goals it should be focused on.

CONCLUSION

Note all of these strategy’s are either fairly cheap (as in terms of actually investing IPC’s to the board) and/or flexible (ex: many of them can be aborted fairly quickly or diverted towards Germany.)  They also work on the philosophy of Japan’s early supply problem while focusing on bailing out Russia. and stacking units in multiple theatres in as efficient of a way as possible to make Japan have to go “soft” in various theatres, hopefully providing you with better openings in Europe and Asia.

Also notice, in a way many of these strats will make the Axis respond to you.  As many of these strategies are gearing the war to the centre of the board through Allied decision making.  Example: if the UK is sending 4 armor per turn from N. Africa towards Persia, both Germany and Japan have to adjust to that.

I do not think you can ever count on beating Japan, or apply a consistent “one true strategy” to do so,  only Japan can beat Japan.  Hopefully you can limit her options, force some moves, increase the chances for her to make mistakes, employ flexible strats that can create opportuninities and openings, and slow her down enough in order to take care of Germany. If not, than the best way of dealing with Japan would be to go 100% Europe (so much as Japan isn’t threatening America anyway) and hopefully you can take down Germany before Japan swells to an unconquerable monster.

These strategies also assume NO’s and no tech.  A game with tech would probably require a bit of a different approach.

[supremem allied commander]

the juggernaut that is the japanese fleet is virtually unstoppable….therefore you have to deal with the overland assault…sacrifices have to be made…all eastern russian forces must be combined to threaten manchuria.  in aa50 the loss of fighters makes it hard to attack manchuria.  so u have to take a defensive posture or attackif u r feelin lucky.  mass the chinese for a counterattack and build an ic in india and run 3 tanks out of there…try and close the salient…sometimes it works…sometimes it dont…dice