Lets Talk Atomic Bombs!

[Lucifer]

In the real WW2, if Germany or Japan invented the nuke before the US they would most certainly win, unless the US managed to produce the bomb maybe a week after one of the axis powers got it.

But if any other country then the US invented the bomb and other powers didn’t, the first country (with the bomb) would win WW2.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Subotai:

In the real WW2, if Germany or Japan invented the nuke before the US they would most certainly win, unless the US managed to produce the bomb maybe a week after one of the axis powers got it.

You means the US would sue for peace,
but you see nations in Axis and Allies never sue for peace they fight to the death.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LuckyDay:

have you seen pics of hiroshima or nagasaki (like the one I attached)?  those were one bomb, one city, quarter-million dead, several kilometers in all directions from ground zero obliterated…

LuckyDay, this is clearly a false statemen and that is fine, everyone on this fourm misspeeks all the time, but to continue to say it ins’t or that it means something else is just stupid

Anyways we should be discusing the rules and it seems like you and me agree on them, I just want some option for attacking military targets even if it is not normally cost effective

[LuckyDay]

@Subotai:

In the real WW2, if Germany or Japan invented the nuke before the US they would most certainly win, unless the US managed to produce the bomb maybe a week after one of the axis powers got it.

But if any other country then the US invented the bomb and other powers didn’t, the first country (with the bomb) would win WW2.

japan did historically test their own bomb, i forget if it was a week before or after hiroshima, but needed more than the time before nagasaki to get on ready to drop on the US, so they couldn’t mount their own campaign before surrender.

[LuckyDay]

@Emperor_Taiki:

Anyways we should be discusing the rules and it seems like you and me agree on them, I just want some option for attacking military targets even if it is not normally cost effective

i think rules for in-combat nukes can be included, but i don’t think in the 40s anyone would have charged their troops into a battle with-in range of their own nuke going off, so it would, imo, need either be a first strike weapon used before combat in a battle or in the 2nd round of combat, if it survives the first and the rest pull back.  Despite the abstraction level of the game, to me there is something very unsatisfying about using a nuke in a battle where your troops are too.  it wasn’t until after the war that countries thought in terms of fighting in a nuclear battlefield…  i don’t know, that’s my rant for the day.

Bardoly’s right on the one hand that there’s no time set for the game–Germany takes several turns to make it to moscow when it only took them the summer of '41 to get there, like turn 1, while it took 3 years for the US to get to France, like 5-6 turns, but that’s the abstraction level, so a turn in AA is often considered a number of months, like the roughly 6 I mentioned.  several months is probably as decent place to start with it as anything else…

@Emperor_Taiki:

@LuckyDay:

have you seen pics of hiroshima or nagasaki (like the one I attached)?  those were one bomb, one city, quarter-million dead, several kilometers in all directions from ground zero obliterated…

LuckyDay, this is clearly a false statemen and that is fine, everyone on this fourm misspeeks all the time, but to continue to say it ins’t or that it means something else is just stupid

dude, you gotta look at the context…
@LuckyDay:

@Emperor_Taiki:

I dont think we are overestamating the econamic damage, but just so you know one a-bomb is not going to take out a whole city.
In 1948 the US had fiftry fission bombs, and it would have taken almost all of them to completely level moscow(given moscow is a big city).

wow….  you were the one who said everyone else, myself included was overestimating the economic damage.
have you seen pics of hiroshima or nagasaki (like the one I attached)?  those were one bomb, one city, quarter-million dead, several kilometers in all directions from ground zero obliterated…
as for moscow, what exactly would have to be hit to make the effect known?  kremlin, stalin’s residence.  it wouldn’t take 50 to make the city uninhabitable…

[Emperor_Taiki]

you got to be kidding me LuckyDay,

I understand we were also talking about Moscow and Tokyo, but in that paragraph you wrote it clearly reads that the bomb dropped on hiroshama killed 250,000 and the bomb dropped on nagasaki killed 250,000 people. That is a false statement and its not right to say that I am taking anything out of context or that what you said meant something else

I understand that is not what you meant, but it is not my fault that what you wrote was wrong.

[Bardoly]

@Bardoly:

Getting back on-topic.

I think that what we have here are 2 groups of people.

Group 1 wants the Atomic Bomb to be a powerful-but-not-game-ending tech.

Group 2 wants the Atomic Bomb to basically end the game in-and-of-itself within a few turns.

I belong to Group 1.  So from a Group 1 point-of-view, in trying to implement the Atomic Bomb in AA50, we need to have a few principles.

1. The Atomic Bomb must be a technology.

2. As a technology, it should be more difficult and/or more expensive to research than the other technologies.

3. Atomic Bombs should not be able to be used in the opening stages of the game.  (i.e. Rounds 1-4)

4. It should be able to affect an opponent’s production ability and/or IPCs.

5. It should be able to affect land units in some way, but not in a overwhelming way.

6. After researching the Atomic Bomb, one should be able to use it at least once per turn if one wishes to…

7. Remember.  We want this technology to add to the fun factor of the game.

These are the principles which I have come up with .  Are there others?  After deciding on which principles to follow, perhaps we can come up with an effective way to implement the Atomic Bomb.

Let’s look at how to implement having Atomic Bombs in AA50 rather than discussing history please.

I’m still waiting for some comments for this post.

[Imperious Leader]

A new tech tree is generated:

in order to be able to access it you need to develop:

Heavy Bombers

Long Range Aircraft

Rockets

If you have all three of these then you follow the usual procedure to develop this technology ( A bombs replace the 6 result)

Then you can build one for 15 IPC and only one per turn…

for production attack: roll 4 dice 3 of which are IPC losses, the 4th is permanent damage to the territory where its dropped.

for tactical attack: roll 4 dice and remove units whose IPC is equal to this amount. Fractions are destroyed.

[Emperor_Taiki]

Bardoly I agree with everyone of your points except i would add that even though the a-bombs attack against military units is not that effective, it should be mor epowerful against land units

And I IL, I like your Tech tree Idea, but why do you need stratgic rockets for atomic weapons? the US did not have stratigic rockets to my knowledge.

I also do not like removing units equal to to the IPC value, it does not imporve atomic weapons ability against more concentrated units and it seems to much like the stratgic attack, they are to similiar for them to be both in the game.

[LuckyDay]

@Emperor_Taiki:

you got to be kidding me LuckyDay,

I understand we were also talking about Moscow and Tokyo, but in that paragraph you wrote it clearly reads that the bomb dropped on hiroshama killed 250,000 and the bomb dropped on nagasaki killed 250,000 people. That is a false statement and its not right to say that I am taking anything out of context or that what you said meant something else

I understand that is not what you meant, but it is not my fault that what you wrote was wrong.

if you are going to try the “read exactly what I wrote and not understand what I said” routine to try and divert attention away from the topic or even the points of contention, then what it actually would have said was that there was one bomb that hit both hiroshima and nagasaki, though they apparently were the same city, killing a total of 250,000.  :-D

[LuckyDay]

@Imperious:

A new tech tree is generated:

in order to be able to access it you need to develop:

Heavy Bombers

Long Range Aircraft

Rockets

If you have all three of these then you follow the usual procedure to develop this technology ( A bombs replace the 6 result)

Then you can build one for 15 IPC and only one per turn…

for production attack: roll 4 dice 3 of which are IPC losses, the 4th is permanent damage to the territory where its dropped.

for tactical attack: roll 4 dice and remove units whose IPC is equal to this amount. Fractions are destroyed.

Once again IL, i think you have summed it up and knocked it out of the park.  Lock the doors and turn the lights off, this one is solved.  Nice work, one and all.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LuckyDay:

if you are going to try the “read exactly what I wrote and not understand what I said” routine to try and divert attention away from the topic or even the points of contention, then what it actually would have said was that there was one bomb that hit both hiroshima and nagasaki, though they apparently were the same city, killing a total of 250,000.   :-D

right, what you said was extremely unclear so excuse me if i did not know what you were talking about

[Imperious Leader]

And I IL, I like your Tech tree Idea, but why do you need stratgic rockets for atomic weapons? the US did not have stratigic rockets to my knowledge.

US did develop rockets but didn’t make any. I find that rockets is one of the primary forms of delivery and both are related in many aspects. Germany for one considered the delivery system as per a V-2/ a4 rocket that was too be retrofitted for mush longer range and carry the atomic bomb. Of course its easier to drop it with a bomber

The other issue is 2 techs are not enough to get the A-bomb i like 3 prerequisites before the A-bomb and a total of 5 is a bit much IMO.

Hitler’s “Pineapple Bomb”

The time is May 1st (May Day) and the year is 1944. The world’s first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile streaks through the earth’s atmosphere at the fantastic speed of 3,440 miles per hour! It is flying too high and too fast to be intercepted. This is the V-2 “Vergeltungswafte” revenge weapon, and the swastika is proudly displayed on the tail fins. For this is Adolf Hitler’s ultimate weapon to win World War ll quickly. The warhead is a bomb about the size of a large pineapple. However, it is capable of mass destruction, killing several million people. Believe it or not, this is the world’s first Atomic bomb! When the United States dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan, around 140,000 people were killed. But Hitler’s atomic bomb would wipe out at least eighteen million people! For it is headed to one of the most populated metropolitan areas in the world. The destination for this guided missile is 74.00 degrees longitude and 40.45 degrees latitude. A captured German map shows that this is Delancy Street and he Bowery in downtown New York City! But you say, this never did take place, however, most people do not know that it came within a hair-breadth of happening. A German scientist had already developed a ballistic missile called the “Peenemünde” V-2 rocket.  It was 46’ 11" high, 5’ 5" in diameter. As previously stated, the maximum speed was 3,440 mph, and it carried 2,150 lbs. of high explosives. Six thousand of the V-2 missiles were manufactured, and most were dropped in and around London, England. Thousands of lives were lost, and much of London was destroyed. One of these V-2 missiles was especially rigged, to carry the first atomic bomb as soon as it was finished.

Dr. Kurt Diebner was head of the German Nuclear Research Program. To make an atomic bomb, energy is delivered from an extremely rapid nuclear chain reaction, in which heavy nucleus or uranium are broken down. (This is known as nuclear fission.) Dr. Diebner’s team needed to process uranium U-238 to separate the important fissionable U-235. They decided that “heavy water” would be the best way to slow down neutrons, so they could split uranium nucleus through fission. Heavy water is composed of heavy particles of hydrogen and oxygen. It was very scarce, produced only at a hydroelectric plant in Vermork, Norway. Then it was shipped by rail to Germany. We were aware and very concerned about the progress Germany was making with their atomic bomb. As soon as the water factory in Norway was discovered, we began to bomb the plant. This kept the production of heavy water to a trickle. Finally the entire plant was completely destroyed by air raids. This was the most significant reason why Hitler did not drop his atomic bomb on New York City, before we dropped ours on Japan.

[Bardoly]

@Imperious:

And I IL, I like your Tech tree Idea, but why do you need stratgic rockets for atomic weapons? the US did not have stratigic rockets to my knowledge.

US did develop rockets but didn’t make any. I find that rockets is one of the primary forms of delivery and both are related in many aspects. Germany for one considered the delivery system as per a V-2/ a4 rocket that was too be retrofitted for mush longer range and carry the atomic bomb. Of course its easier to drop it with a bomber

The other issue is 2 techs are not enough to get the A-bomb i like 3 prerequisites before the A-bomb and a total of 5 is a bit much IMO.

I think requiring 3 specific techs would be so much harder to accomplish than getting any 4 techs as I had earlier proposed that Atomic Bombs would almost never be researched in a game before turn 20.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Bardoly:

I think requiring 3 specific techs would be so much harder to accomplish than getting any 4 techs as I had earlier proposed that Atomic Bombs would almost never be researched in a game before turn 20.

yah thats also a good point.

How about if you have rockets you can just launch the bomb from three spaces away with out a bomber, like  a normal rocket attack

[Imperious Leader]

we need a study made of the odds of having 1,2 and 3 committed researchers on an ongoing basis and how many turns (use LL model) does it take to obtain these three techs.

Then we can see how many need to be assigned. The target is 10 turns if playing 41 and 8 if playing 42

[LuckyDay]

@Emperor_Taiki:

@LuckyDay:

if you are going to try the “read exactly what I wrote and not understand what I said” routine to try and divert attention away from the topic or even the points of contention, then what it actually would have said was that there was one bomb that hit both hiroshima and nagasaki, though they apparently were the same city, killing a total of 250,000.   :-D

right, what you said was extremely unclear so excuse me if i did not know what you were talking about

hey, all you had to do was ask, it happens for people to not understand concepts, ideas or terms with such a wide assortment of people across the globe.  I’m also available to help with tutoring geography, political science, division, grammar, logic and phonics.

@Bardoly:

I think requiring 3 specific techs would be so much harder to accomplish than getting any 4 techs as I had earlier proposed that Atomic Bombs would almost never be researched in a game before turn 20.

while the 3 techs IL listed very much have connections with A-bomb development and delivery, the randomness of the tech trees themselves could indeed make it difficult to procure.  It might be time to rethink the random role vs focused research aspect of techs to be able to target the correct 3/4 techs.  How badly does the reinstitution of the focused development from AAR change the game of AA50 when included is a question that comes to mind. 
  The thing with any 4 techs is that you could get naval shipyards, paratroopers, super subs and radar, and really have no delivery system like with rockets and heavy bombers that we have discussed being used in connection with the bombs.
    or could a normal bomber deliver a reduced capacity bomb until HBs or Rockets are developed?

if i punched the numbers in correctly, it’s like 16% chance of a 6 with 1 die, 30% with 2 and 49% with 3, using LL each turn, then similar numbers with the tech trees being random.  if one were to add 1 die each turn, it could take quite a while to guarantee the correct 3 or 4 techs (16 turns there-abouts)
  with the trees, it’s like 16%, 20, 25, 33, 50, lock.  with LL, you might well need 4 researchers to lock up a tech first round, then still take several turns to get the right one.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@LuckyDay:

have you seen pics of hiroshima or nagasaki (like the one I attached)?  those were one bomb, one city, quarter-million dead, several kilometers in all directions from ground zero obliterated…

fine, explain to me how this paragraph makes sence

I believe it is unclear and saying something that is untrue

Do you beleive it is clear or saying something that is true?

[Imperious Leader]

Ok folks lets all do our part to solve these issues with some decorum. Its not helping to get into cat fights.

The proposal must be predicated on integration of these rules with the minimal changes to the OOB.

It cannot turn into a new version of AARHE or some radical changes. Keep the tech tree as it is and just establish the A-bombs as some rider so if X prerequisite techs are developed, then you can have access to this tech.

If the math on the previous post is correct, to obtain the 3 required techs, it would take too long.

So i propose we just add a new forth category of  Atomic research level 1, 2 and 3. 1 and 2 do nothing and 3 gets you the bomb as long as you have one additional tech that becomes ‘the delivery system’: The cost of each research could be altered to 8 per or 10 per due to the high costs of this research.

Heavy bombers allows the delivery system to be by the bomber

Rockets allows you to shoot the A-bomb as per rocket rules

Heavy Artillery can also be considered as a delivery system

Also forgot to mention AA guns should have no effect on bombers dropping the weapon. The altitude required to drop such a weapon is way out of the AA gun range, not to mention the rules is you can only build one at a time and to lose it would be a huge waste.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

I think my buying tech dice rule is simple enough (inspired by Revised Tech rules).  It makes A bombs hard to get, requires other techs, and doesn’t mess with the tech charts.