Building Italian fleet - is there a point?

[dondoolee]

@Panzer:

@Perry:

I’m curious. Do you build boats with Italy?
What would the purpose of Italian ships be, and have you ever acheived anything valuable with the Ita fleet (other than having it wiped out mid-game by US).

I believe that an Italian fleet is very important and chances are the Axis will loose if they loose the Med and Italy’s fleet. A trick I have used on G1 (in 41 and 42 game) is to buy an IC on France right away. On Italy’s turn save all your money and move the whole fleet to south of France. Then on Germany’s turn buy several ships (dd, trans, & sub) to add to the fleet, so on UK’s turn there are too many ships for them to attack. Then on I2 buy a carrier and trans and try to take Egypt and/or Trans-Jordan. On G2 buy more ships and ground forces to move to Africa. Make sure all your transports (I & G) are always full going across every turn, even if just “bridging” to re-inforce. Work on getting all Italy’s NO’s ASAP and keep moving guys across and enlarging your fleet. If Germany can spare the money they could add their own carrier to the fleet and it starts to get real large. Do not buy a German fleet in the Baltic, add it to the Italian fleet, it lasts longer and makes it a lot harder for the allies. 8-)

That is still WAY more costly, less agressive (particularly on your Russian neighbor who does not need ships to threaten you), and less flexible than air units.

[Zhukov44]

@dondoolee:

@Twigley:

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

I am just confused as to why people think not building any land units for 2 turns would be beneficial for the Axis.  Not only that you are building a purley defensive unit that defends just as much as a destroyer unless you force airplanes on it, not only that but a jap carrier can be sent there in 2 turns, not only that but German airplanes/surviving subs can provide better protection and more flexability than a very expensive unit (by Italinan standards).  Carriers are just not good buys for the Western Axis, particulary Italy.

As far as the 4 bombers, Its still usefull in slowing down Germany because of the SBR’s.  A little excessive, yes, but the real point was if the Allies value the Italian navy that much the navy is dead.  The whole point of the Western theater that must be rememberd is that it is designed for the Allies to rule the ocean and still have enough to take out Germany/Italy.  That is just the mechanics of the game.  If that wasn’t the case than the game could not be winnable for the Allies.  That is not to say Italy should never build a naval unit ever, just probably not on t1  or t2 particularly something as economicaly devestating and useless to her as a CV.

Yeah I gotta agree.  If I was buying a carrier turn 1, I’m not sure where I’d find the units to accomplish my objectives in Africa and help protect France.  If the Allies are KGF then the Jap carrier is pretty much the only option IMO…but if the Allies are all or mostly on Japan its a different ballgame.

[dondoolee]

@Zhukov44:

@dondoolee:

@Twigley:

Imagine in Round 1 the UK buy bombers - you know they’re coming for you…

Well it depends - if Germany took Egy - then you can take TJ and your ships are out of UK bomber range.

I would then by a fighter.

Who knows what the UK does next go? She could keep buying bombers - but 4+ seems extravagant - especially as Russia needs a break; so she opts to use her Rnd 1 buy SBRing and buys other stuff. Navy, IC whatever. At this point already Japan will begin eating into the British Empire in the east.

Round 2 Buy an AC, bring your BB, cruisers, transport back and drop 2 Fghtrs onto the carrier.

From now on drop troops onto North Africa. If you are getting NO’s maybe buy alternate combinations of destroyers, subs, and inf/art couplets. At that point Italy’s navy is very powerful.

Should the Germans have an IC in France then it is possible that a careful German sub building campaign (in Baltic/Med) could come together in a big way later in the game with Italian naval back up…

I am just confused as to why people think not building any land units for 2 turns would be beneficial for the Axis.  Not only that you are building a purley defensive unit that defends just as much as a destroyer unless you force airplanes on it, not only that but a jap carrier can be sent there in 2 turns, not only that but German airplanes/surviving subs can provide better protection and more flexability than a very expensive unit (by Italinan standards).  Carriers are just not good buys for the Western Axis, particulary Italy.

As far as the 4 bombers, Its still usefull in slowing down Germany because of the SBR’s.  A little excessive, yes, but the real point was if the Allies value the Italian navy that much the navy is dead.  The whole point of the Western theater that must be rememberd is that it is designed for the Allies to rule the ocean and still have enough to take out Germany/Italy.  That is just the mechanics of the game.  If that wasn’t the case than the game could not be winnable for the Allies.  That is not to say Italy should never build a naval unit ever, just probably not on t1  or t2 particularly something as economicaly devestating and useless to her as a CV.

Yeah I gotta agree.  If I was buying a carrier turn 1, I’m not sure where I’d find the units to accomplish my objectives in Africa and help protect France.  If the Allies are KGF then the Jap carrier is pretty much the only option IMO…but if the Allies are all or mostly on Japan its a different ballgame.

Yeah, a more KJF allied strat is for sure a different ballgame.

[Panzer Leader]

That is still WAY more costly, less agressive (particularly on your Russian neighbor who does not need ships to threaten you), and less flexible than air units.

You are correct that it is alot more costly. The idea is to get your fleet to a point where you only need to add to it a little and you can stay ahead of the Allies, but you cannot let up on Russia and still have to be as aggressive you can with whats left and what you start with. You still spend the rest of the IPCs on ground troops for the first couple of turns to send Russia’s way and try to secure Germany’s NOs as well. Then buy planes to fill the carriers, one with Italy and a couple with Germany. If Italy/Germany can secure the Med and move south into Africa for money and east into Persia so you can then hit Russia in Cacauscus from Persia, from Ukraine and from the Black Sea simultainously and hold it. Plan it after Russia goes and use one then the other to re-inforce.

I am not saying it is fool proof but it has worked for me. It does maybe take a little longer but you don’t loose your Italian fleet and you start to take off with the money earning way more then the Allies. Japan of course has to do its part to go after Russia (and India and China) as well.

If you can stay ahead and start bringing Russia down to size, you can then move that fleet into the Atlantic beside France and plan for UK/America invasion. Usually you win with victory cities by that point. 8-)

I have played the all out ground forces against Russia game where you let Italy stand on its own and that can work as well, but like you said you have to buy lots of planes to take out UK fleets, which can be costly as well trading planes for ships. If Italy falls before Russia does that can be a big blow to Germany. :-(

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Italy’s objective is to keep the Med clean.  spending IPCs on planes seems a bit more flexible and cost effective, specially if you want to shift gears and hit Russia instead.

[takerwwe5849]

all subs lol, i did that once, it was funny :-P

[Crossover]

aa50; with NOs; Germany attacked Egypt:

I usually buy as Italy 1 Inf + 1 Art and save 3 IPC

Italy conquers Egypt + Trans Jordan, gets 11 IPC income + 2x5 IPC for NOs + 3 saved = 24 IPC total
wait for UK and US, what do they build?

If they build fleet, react round 2 with an AC + fighter.
If not, build whatever you want.

Either way, this is the most flexibel solution for Italy

[critmonster]

I2 flattop is awesome, even if only for the allied reaction  :lol:
I did that yesterday and the med was completely ignored the rest of the game

[Twigley]

@critmonster:

I2 flattop is awesome, even if only for the allied reaction  :lol:
I did that yesterday and the med was completely ignored the rest of the game

Good point critmonster, we are dealing with people’s psychology as well as optimum strategy. An AC can act as enough of a deterrent to keep the med axis, which with an IC in France can foster some German sub building.

[Butcher]

There is a big purpose for the Italian fleet. If it is powerful enough, the U.S. will have trouble taking Italy and the Allies will have a much harder time winning. I think a transport first turn is necessary, and then a carrier and fighter over turns 2 and 3. If a weak Allied fleet sits within reach or is approaching, buy some subs and maybe a destroyer or two to attack them with. You have to respect Italy.  8-)

[Crossover]

aa50, with NOs, no tech, with bidding for allies to balance the game

in this case the Italian fleet is already in real danger.

That’s how it works:

Bidding 3 IPC: Uk places one infantry in Egypt. Turn 1 Germany it is impossible to kill all units in Egypt, especially with no luck.
That UK fighter normally survives. Now on Turn 1 Uk, there is an attack with UK Bomber, Egypt fighter und Gibraltar naval units (destroyer + cruiser) against the Italian fleet with an 60% of winnig and a much higher chance to simply kill that fleet even when losing all attacking units.

Yes, losing the fighter and bomber hurts UK, but get that fleet destroyed simply kills Italy. No hope of NOs, Africa gone forever there’s not fun at all to play Italy !

So it seems forced that Germany has to attack that destroyer + cruiser with subs  + air units, to help the Italians.

If bids get higher, the problems rise too: a 9 IPC bid, Uk can place one inf to Egypt and one sub to that DD + Cr fleet.

Anyone experienced that? What do you do in that situation as Germany ?

[SgtBlitz]

Italian builds I’ve played with usually involved fighters and carriers once I got the med NO’s.  If you can get Japan through the Suez and Germany to build a factory in France, by I3 the joint Axis fleet is a factor the Allies should have stopped 2 turns ago.  If playing Allies I go for the Italian fleet asap so as to protect Africa’s ipcs/deny italy its NOs.  If Allies take the med, then italy is pretty much reduced to all inf builds, which is still fun to use retaking France every now and then.

[Lynxes]

The Italian fleet is REALLY important for game outcome, since having those African IPCs is vital for UK to be a threat to Germany and once the navy is gone you should mop-up Africa soon enough.

But what’s the best way of destroying the Italian fleet? I think the following:

1. On US1, build 1 CV+2 bom’s.
2. On US2, move 1 DD+1 fully loaded CV to sz12, move 4 bom’s to French West Africa (note: safe from attack from Egypt and can reach East Med., if Axis has tanks in range, place bom’s in Belgian Congo covered by UK troops). Sz12 might be bolstered by UK fleet if needed for defence against German air strike.
3. On US3, strike Italian fleet with 2 figs, 3 boms. With this air set-up, there’s nowhere for Italy to hide unless they sail out of the Med.! Also, if both figs are destroyed in the combat (as is likely), you don’t even need to sail your fleet into the Med. and expose yourself to counterattack by German air, just land surviving bombers in Africa or Russia.

I think this is the best way since UK can then focus on building an invasion fleet strong enough to withstand air attack. In the case of a CV build by Italy on turn 2, though, you might need a combined UK/US strike to wipe out the fleet, preferably not sacrificing the whole UK fleet but only some DDs/figs. A UK turn 2 move to sz12 with the fleet is a good precaution in case of an Italian CV build.

[Omega]

Without closing the Dardanelles, I think Russia is always threatened by Italy. So even if you spend alot of naval units, you can still do some amphibious assaults, which can deal prevent Russia from going all offensive.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

Yeah, Dardanelles must be closed for Russia to have a chance, or Hitler has a field day and takes Moscow on turn 6.  W/o that rule, Italian fleet should be #1 target for UK bombers.

[WILD BILL]

Here’s a twist playing AA50 42 w/NO’s & Tech. G1 cleared sz 12 & 15. Built a German AC in the Baltic.(I know normally this is bad). UK took notice combined its fleet and added to it. G2 I got lucky and got jet fighters (but I would have attacked any way) . I attacked with my German navy and all available air units. Both navies went to the bottom, but I did save about 1/2 my air. Italy/Germany is now cleaning up Africa. My Italian navy is in tact (I only added a transport so far but will add more war ships now) Japans loaded AC, BB and tnsp is ready to come through the Suez. I also still have my Ger DD & transport in the Med. The German AC was just an expensive distraction, but for now it seems to have worked. It’s turn 3 and I own the Med with a rather large fleet, that the Allies don’t have an answer for it yet. I’m going to 1-2 punch Caucus with Italy & Japan. Germany has Len IC with a good size stack and was able to use the Baltic transport for 2 rounds to capture/reinforce it because the fleet stayed alive for 2 rounds because of the carrier.

[akreider2]

One of the problems of an Italian fleet is the lack of airforce.  Therefore the fleet won’t have any attack potential.

By contrast, a German fleet can be combined with 5-6 planes.  This is part of the reason why I  would get an aircraft carrier in the Revised game on G1.

[Historybuff]

If Italy can take Africa for IPCs and keep its fleet intact for 4-5 turns Italy can start doing good.  One game Germany launched an unsucssesful invasion of UK.  Then Italy came out of nowhere and took the UK with one tank left and the US fleet was 3 sz away.  Game ending move.  Italy has potential.