KJF Strategy Feasibility?

[bugoo]

I think the big key is to stretch Japan out and then push her back.  To do this all allies need to participate.

USSR needs to keep the Siberian troops out there.  I like leaving 3 inf on bury and 5 on stanov.  This way you can take man with 3 inf on turn 2 and still have 5-6 inf out there to play with.  Also, I like placing 1-2 inf on Persia, and/or having a few tanks in caucaus or a fighter roaming around.  This allows you to threaten taking out the Italian fleet, or reinforcing India for an IC.  I don’t see a need to feed china if they lost there fighter.

UK needs to block with there destroyer in SZ 48, place the tranny in 47.  Then decide to go or not for an India IC, and to retake burma or not.  Remember, Japan doesn’t have a lot of troops in the area.  I also like to send the bomber to persia, or to Rhodesia.  As far as purchase an IC in south africa, or Australia is good, as are bombers.

The US should send 2 figs to Australia, send the AC to SZ 46, and get the bombers down there possibly as well.  I like purchasing one bomber with the US and then destroyers and subs and at least one transport.

On turn 2 Japan has alot of things to contend with.  They need to retake man, they need to protect there transports, they want to hit the US fleet but may not, they want to take india but cannot hold it, etc.  Also, on UK2 if russia retakes trans-jordan and they have the planes they can knock out the italian fleet and possibly have more planes down in that area.  Remember, UK bombers can get to the south pacific in one turn and if someone retakes India the US can use it as a landing spot for any planes striking Japanese boats in that SZ.

Even if Russia falls the south pacific is worth just as much, esp if you take Africa.  The key I think is to spend 2 turns focusing on Japan, then quickly shift gears and do a HARD push on France/Africa to get a foothold before Russia falls.

[Funcioneta]

@bugoo:

Even if Russia falls the south pacific is worth just as much, esp if you take Africa.  The key I think is to spend 2 turns focusing on Japan, then quickly shift gears and do a HARD push on France/Africa to get a foothold before Russia falls.

Soviets falling is defeat for allies. You cannot beat Japan at time, you can only take, as much, Pacific islands, but you cannot make a serious land campaign in Asia, so a Japan reduced to China, India and home Japan can collect at least 25-30 IPCs. And I doubt UK can make much without african income

[wodan46]

KJF is something I must conclude as unfeasible.  The problem is that in order to significantly threaten Japan, you must concentrate all your forces and your whole build around it.  A plan that focused is easily countered, because an opponent can see it coming and exploit its vulnerabilities.  For a plan to be effective, it must be adaptable and flexible, to pose many threats at once.  For example, a plan that focuses on allied control of the Mediterranean grants the ability to attack Africa, France, Italy, Balkans/Bulgaria, and the Caucasus all at once, and the opponent, if not able to stop your fleet directly, must be able to deal with the consequences of each.  Similarly, an early Bomber build by Britain lets them SBR Germany or Italy, sink the Italian fleet, block Germany from building a fleet, and threaten an invasion at some later point.

[Jennifer]

I highly discourage the UK Indian IC on Round 1 in 1941.  There is no possible way of holding it and building there on UK 2, not if Japan set up their attacks and NCMs the way I do.

Russia could set up to liberate on Russia 2, but by then, Japan’s gotten a Complex in FIC running and units transported down to make a heavy attack on India Round 3.

If Russia did not set up to liberate on Russia 2 and instead used only what was available, there’s a good chance that Japan will take India again on Japan 2 and permanently deny England the use of the complex.

[bugoo]

I would rarely build it myself, but when russia has 1-2 inf, 2-4 arm, and/or 1-2 figs that can reinforce India on turn 2, Japan has to be aware of that and ensure they send a large force toward India on J1, kinda a forcing there hand so to speak.

[Jennifer]

@bugoo:

I would rarely build it myself, but when russia has 1-2 inf, 2-4 arm, and/or 1-2 figs that can reinforce India on turn 2, Japan has to be aware of that and ensure they send a large force toward India on J1, kinda a forcing there hand so to speak.

Uhm, I don’t think that’s plausible in Round 1.

Yes, it is possible, but it would require you to move the Armor from Russia to Caucasus, pull infantry from Caucasus to Persia, and build a lot of equipment for the specific purpose of liberating India on Russia 2, which means, for Russia 1 and Russia 2 you are giving Germany a virtual pass. (Everything is tied up with liberating India.)

[bugoo]

1-2 inf usually seed china anyway and will not hurt your builds that much.  Building a fighter is not a bad idea, and leaving an armor or two in caucaus doesn’t hurt that much either.  Its not that you will try to liberate India with Russia, its the threat of reinforcing it on R2.  If you send just 1 inf, 2 arm, and 1 fig on top of the 3 inf 1 art already there Japan best ensure they are sending in alot of troops to take it for J2, it would take 5 inf, 1 art, 4 figs with 1 surviving unit from Japan.  Not that you should build the IC but if Japan doesn’t have her fighters in range, or didn’t send a transport to Burma or lost a few more planes than expected it may be a valid move.  And remember, on UK2 there will be 2 inf from trans-jodan showing up along with 2-3 fighters from the US that will be in range to land on turn 2.  Yes russia will miss those units dearly, for a turn.  The other neat thing is on UK2 if you take burma on R3 they can blitz to FIC, not that it would happen but it sure would be neat (and pretty much ensure Japan was out of south asia).

(edit: I did bad math)

[Lucifer]

AA50 is not “cracked” yet, so it’s possible, although unlikely, that KJF strat could work, but in any case I don’t think a KJF strat will be more effective than KGF with NOs off,  a KJF strat in -41 I think is easier when using NOs. I’m thinking that using NOs could be a must for any successful KJF strat in the -41 scenario.

I agree with those who say that an UK IC in India is not sustainable. A KJF strat in -41 must be done without any UK IC in India. IC in Australia could possible work, but I doubt it.

Any strat which is founded on the premise that Russia is helping other allies, is deeply flawed. With aggressive axis play it’s definitely Russia who’s gonna need help from her allies, not the other way around.

[bugoo]

The problem is though if they are not held in south asia and get factory production going down there, how do you push them back?  You must be gearing back up into Europe by turn 3, 4 at the latest to establish a foothold by the time Russia falls and getting at Japan before then is very, very difficult.

[Funcioneta]

KJF will probably fail

But KGF will fail without doubt if axis plays right because Japan is so powerful that can counter KGF with Polar Express so easily.

And I think playing without NOs and without tech is the only chance for allies win. But that kills all the fun  :-P and doesn’t grants a balanced game anyway (I think allies can have a 40 % chance or so)Stingy page 10 of rulebook and stingy chinese setup  :-P

Then only “craked” stuff I can see until now is killing or italian fleet or at least forcing them escape to Indian Ocean, but I fear that is not enough.

[DarthMaximus]

I think KJF is possible, but it depends on your implementation.

Obviously the days of a Kwangbang type attack are over, but that doesn’t mean you can’t get to J.  I think any US Pac strat should be a KJF.  You can survive the loss of Moscow to Ger, if you can get to Japan within 1-3 turns after Mos falls.  After that it is probably too late.

The UKs involvement comes later, unlike previous versions.  I think in AA50 the best course for a KJF is to start US only.  Once you can get to EI/Bor, then you bring in the UK.  They can put an IC on EI and/or Bor, the US follows up with an IC on Phil and you try and close in on Japan.

The importantant thing would be for UK to make sure Russia survives for 5, 6, 7 rds while the US gears up its fleet movements.  Realistically you won’t be able to get to Phil before rd 6 or 7 as the US so you need time.  I’d also recommend the US sending 2 inf per turn to Afr, then to Europe once you can move your UK fleet to Sz 6.

[bugoo]

One thing i’ve been toying with for this strategy is moving the UK atlantic fleet into the pacific.  My usual UK1 buy is a battleship, carrier, and transport.  Then on UK2 moving to SZ 13 if safe and buying bombers, US sends its fig to algeria US2.  Then UK3 smash italian fleet.  On UK4 I could be in SZ 34 if the fleet survived (i will usually sacrifice planes to keep the boats).  Now granted 2 destroyers, 1 BB, and 1 AC isn’t that great of a fleet, and german air probably can (and would if in range) sink it, but it could be improved.  Also, this would allow for an Egypt IC, or Fic IC to be semi protected if the US is keeping the Jap fleet pinned, and keeps Africa in allied hands.  On UK3 I like to start dropping more boats into the Atlantic with the US helping.

[Jennifer]

bugoo:

Here’s what I am assuming.

Round 1:  England builds a Complex in India reinforcing with what it can.

Round 2:  Japan takes the complex in India (probably with one or two infantry left.) and Brings units to FIC with Transports so you can attack India Round 3.

Round 3:  Russia liberates India.  Japan takes it again before England can build there.

Round 4:  Repeat

Keep repeating the Russia liberates while Japan conquers until the Allies give up India and lets Japan have it, or the Allies cannot liberate it and Japan starts building there.

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I agree with Func.  KGF is doomed without exemplary dice rolls for the allies.  America must at least distract Japan, though, I honestly think that with minimal Russian involvement and China doing what it can, America has an awesome shot at taking out Japan before Russia falls, before Italy falls and before Germany falls.  If you’re lucky, you might even do it before Africa is completely liberated!

Thing is, Japan and America are hypersensitive to islands in the Pacific. (At least if you play with NOs.)  There’s 3 American NOs that can be lost from attacks by Japan in the Pacific (North America, Philippines, Pacific Islands) there’s one that be gained for England (taking any originally orange territory) and 3 that can be lost by Japan by attacks from the Pacific (Manchuria/Kwang, Pacific Islands, Australia/India).

Not to mention, you have a lot of territories that can be liberated for England to help them in their fight.  Can’t think of anything quite as annoying with Germany as having an England collecting for Australia, Borneo, New Guinea and E. Indies!

[Bigtiti]

i wouldn’t do KJF in 1941
i tried it once

1. you can’t put IC with US in pacific (all turns british)
2. germany can crush russia pretty easily
   and this was all without NO’s
   with, i wouldn’t try it

1942, is allot better, especially with NO’s

[bugoo]

Jenn:

No not at all.

Round 1 Russia sent 2 inf to persia, and ensured there were an armor to two in cauc and builds a fig, somewhere. UK builds complex, moves TJ inf to persia, fig to India if alive if it seems viable after J1.  If not, 3 bombers would be a good move as russia can liberate TJ for a LZ, or go standard build or whatever.

Round 2 Russia sends what it can to India to ensure it holds. (fig, inf in persia, armors, whatever).  Or pulls its 2 inf investment back out of persia.

Now we go into the realm of what would be craziness but awesome.

UK2 attacks burma and builds in India.

R3 blitzes into FIC.

Now you would not do this AT ALL assuming Japan does a standard opening and aims to hit india hard, or if germany purchased all tanks.  But, the only investment are things that Russia would do anyway so the cost is very low and the potential pay off if Japan goes the northern route, or germany builds defensive, or a bomber on turn 1, and you can pull it off are worth it in my mind.

The thing about allied strats in AA50 is the axis have the initiative.  You must react to what they do, hit them where they are weak, retreat where you are strong.  Go KJF if you can, go KGF if they are open to it.  But those 2 inf in persia, or 2 figs, or arm in caucaus, can give you an opportunity to hurt Japan and push her back hard.  Or kill the Italian navy, or both.

Everyone assumes that on J2 japan invades half the board, they cannot send all there forces everywhere at once.  They must leave themselves open somewhere, and that is where you push back.  In all the games i’ve played J2 is a messier turn than J1.

In closing I believe the India IC is something that should be done rarely, and only when the axis give the opening.

[Jennifer]

bugoo:

I know what you are saying, Mollari tried this against me, I took India every round for three rounds, we have not gotten to round 4.

2 infantry, 2 armor and maybe a fighter (I say maybe because if it was not built in Caucasus then it probably is not going to India) will result in 1 or 2 armor surviving (and the fighter).  Japan will have at least 2 fighters, 2 infantry, 2 armor in range, more likely 5 fighters, 3 infantry, artillery, 2 armor in range for a Round 2 strike on India.

It’s just not worth it.  Even if you do manage to hold India for England to build on it, we’re talking 5 rounds after it’s been built most likely, and then, only because America started kicking butt in the Pacific.  If that’s the case, why not wait until Round 5 and liberate India then build a complex there?

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Front:

Got news for ya, in 1942 the islands revert to British control too.

But you don’t need a complex for America.  The goal isn’t to have complexes running in Borneo and Sumatra like it was in Revised, the goal is to start making routine invasions into Manchuria and Kaingsu followed by mass scale invasions into Japan.

[bugoo]

Obviously if J2 can take it don’t do it.  Not sure where your getting 2 armors from on J2 that far south though.

And if the US is going hardcore pacific and japan would have to sac 2-3 fighters to take india, it may still be worth it to reinforce but not build the IC turn 1, but maybe turn 2 after further UK/US reinforcements arrive if japan doesn’t take it.

You start with 3 inf, 1 art there, J2 usually has 5 inf, 1 art, and 5 figs in range, usually.  In this case I would just hit the units in burma with your UK troops and forget about india, focusing on Australia.  But if there are only say 4 fighters, 2 inf, and 1 art in range, then it gets interesting when russia sends in 2 inf, and 2 arms, even without an IC there if there are 2 figs on Australia and 2 more inf in Persia.

[Jennifer]

Meant the armor for J3, build them on J2.

J2 Japan should have, at minimum:

3 Fighters in FIC to hit India
2 Fighters in SZ 37 (after taking out the SZ 35 destroyer/transport) to hit India
2 Infantry in either Borneo or Sumatra
1 Infantry in the other (Borneo or Sumatra)

Total: 3 Infantry, 5 Fighters

England will have at most: 4 Infantry, Artillery, but that assumes the infantry in Burma survived, it might not.  Lately I’ve been letting the Yunnan fighter live and taking out the Burmese infantry with the guys in FIC upping my available fighters to 5 or 6 infantry instead of 3.  But most players still hit Yunnan, so we’ll assume it is alive to retreat.

3 Infantry, 5 Fighters vs 4 Infantry, Artillery, AA Gun

Odds (according to frood with at least 1 infantry surviving the attack): Attacker survives: 97.6%  Defender survives: 2.2%

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Now, in Japan 2, Japan will know that England has a complex in India because England built it.  Russia should have 2 infantry, 2 armor ready to hit India, according to the plan posted before.  That means Japan should be ready to take out 2 infantry, 2 armor (assuming the defender misses, which he is likely to do 67% of the time.)

To do that, Japan should have moved whatever they had in Japan to FIC during the NCM of Round 2 so that if Russia liberated in Round 3, Japan can obliterate whatever Russia put there.  As for forces, we’re probably talking 3 Infantry, Artillery, 2 Armor in FIC + an Industrial Complex + whatever of the 5 fighters survived in India (I’ll assume 3 or 4 survived) + the battleship and cruiser.  That should be more than enough to take out the Russians.

Russia, and England, will see this and either forgo taking India (yielding the complex to Japan) or have to station more Russians in Persia to hit India on Russia 3.  If Russia stations the extra troops, Japan stations the troops to take India again.  If Russia gives up, then Japan can use the forces in FIC to attack up through China or leave them so that the Japanese can get forces squared away for an attack on Australia.

[bugoo]

Jenn:

Your not understanding, on turn 2, russia turn 2, before japan 2, russia sends in the troops if you decide to go for an india IC.  This is why on russia 1 you place 2 inf in persia, and build armor in cauc, or planes.  By the time a J3 hit is ready you have all those russian units, US fighters (up to 3), transjordan inf, and whatever you built there.  Obviously there are conditions that would prevent this, like a 6 armor buy for germany that goes without saying.

One other neat thing, UK fighters in French West Africa can land on a carrier built in India.

[Woodstock]

I like Darth Maximus’ idea of liberating one of the 2 4-IPC Islands, and then build a british IC there.
Sure, it would take 3 or 4 rounds before the US can safely hold it, but if they can, and UK can start building there, Japan is gonna be in trouble.

In those first 3 or 4 rounds UK should do everything it can to preserve IPC’s and it’s income, just threatening Germany to keep it honest (Russia should be able to withstand Germany for a while, especially if Japan is busy with the Yanks).

Not saying this can work, but it’s a complete different approach, which is worth thinking about.