Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB

[farmboy]

Dice wise that went as well as it probably could in that the Iraq strafe worked perfectly. I do think the 92 setup would have paid off more and moving the 111 fleet to iceland with a fighter in support. 109 is a better position for them generally, but they can’t do much next turn from there since there is no US fleet they can join and they can’t join with the UK med fleet. And Italy has too free a hand in the med. But I’m probably a broken record on that.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

This was the most conservative Allied opening that I have seen in a long time. It seems like the 50 point bid did very little to swing the game in any theater. Italy can capture Gibraltar this round and hold that plus the Med for 3 or 4 turns with a bit of German support. They will have quite a nice economy for a game where they should have been demolished with so much Atlantic bid.

[trulpen]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

This was the most conservative Allied opening that I have seen in a long time. It seems like the 50 point bid did very little to swing the game in any theater. Italy can capture Gibraltar this round and hold that plus the Med for 3 or 4 turns with a bit of German support. They will have quite a nice economy for a game where they should have been demolished with so much Atlantic bid.

Sorry for that.

It’s just that there were conflicting aspects I had to relate to. Bismarck had to be taken care of securely without losing air. As the 2 subs. This meant Taranto was off the table. As you know I seriously considered hitting Tobruk now, but simply decided upon rather securing z96 and strafing Iraq. Cairo is secure and has a mIC now. UK will likely have control in Africa and ME.

I don’t believe this opening was bad.

Italy should not be able to hold on to Gibraltar for more than a round if they take it. Both US and UK can bring in troops to contest it. Sure, if Germany lands all their air there it will be tough, but that would only be pretty daft.

[trulpen]

Well, don’t be too disappointed. I suck as Allies.

[trulpen]

Now I look forward to Andrew’s analysis.

[farmboy]

@trulpen said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

Well, don’t be too disappointed. I suck as Allies.

Its early and none of these issues are necessarily critical. Allies are the hardest to play and you are getting bombarded by people with different playing styles (which may confuse as much as it may be interesting). So I wouldn’t be hard on yourself.

[wizmark]

@trulpen I must say I liked it in the main, apart from I feel the US could have used another TT in the atlantic to retake gib if needed.

London is secure, the fleet in 109 will be protected by a 6 plane scramble, if germany goes for it then all the air needed to take down moscow will be dead. Cairo is reasonably safe, UKPAC risking its air, but the potential for carnage in the japanese air force will probably dissuade the yunnan attack for a round or two.

I feel its better to be conservative with the UK for the first few rounds at least…so much to protect and so little to do it with…curse Chamberlain and his appeasement!!

[Tizkit]

I was thinking about how to make this process a bit more fluid/timely while keeping interest up since it is a great idea. The most obvious downside is that it’s hard to consolidate so many people’s opinions, especially considering it’s all coming through in text. Kudos to @trulpen for being willing to try.

Here’s my proposal for the ‘World’ side. After each turn @AndrewAAGamer makes:

• 24+ hours for anyone to submit a TripleA file of what they suggest the best completed Allied turn is. (perhaps @trulpen can issue a cut-off notice at any point after the 24 hour mark)
• 24 hours for anyone to vote/rank their top 3 choices. (perhaps 3 points top choice, then 2 points, then 1 point) Must use all votes, can’t just say 3 points to your own proposal. :p
• Trulpen uses his best judgement to execute the proposal with the most points.

Text-only input would still be welcome and obviously it would be helpful to explain why you think your submission is good, but I think submitting a TripleA file with the proposed turn and then voting would consolidate and narrow down the decision making. Plus it makes sure everyone’s input is counted in some form.

P.S. Uploading the TripleA file only rather than the entire game turn summary might make it less spammy and clearer what the proposed turns VS actual turns are.

[AndrewAAGamer]

I agree with @farmboy. A lot of this is playing style and there are varied opinions through the conservative to aggressive spectrum to deal with.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@AndrewAAGamer So what would you have done differently in the Allied opener?

[AndrewAAGamer]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

@AndrewAAGamer So what would you have done differently in the Allied opener?

Working on it. :)

[majikforce]

@AndrewAAGamer A lot of great players with great thoughts and ideas! Thanks Trulpen for sorting through it all! Everybody’s different playing styles are fascinating to read about. I am by no means a very good allied player I try to stick to 3 simple principles when playing. 1) conserve UK units early except if they can significantly hamper Italy. 2) Get the infrastructure prepared for when the US arrives, factories,AB etc. 3) Try to do what bothers my opponent most. All the calculations and planning are great and the numbers can give insight as to what to do. But ultimately you are playing the man (this is why playing at a table, sitting across from someone is great) The play by forum is amazing but cannot fully capture the ability to read to your opponent. AndrewAAGamer is our opponent and trying to anticipate his tendencies and moves is part of our objective as well. (This becomes more difficult with the better players because they have seen it all) but everybody has things they like to do and things that bother them. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game and figuring out my opponent as well as the straight up math that goes with figuring out a turn. Something to keep in mind for everybody when they play someone. Great stuff everybody! But I do agree we need to keep it moving or we will lose interest. Turn 1 is so important though so maybe it should of taken a little longer to decide.

[trulpen]

@Tizkit said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

Here’s my proposal for the ‘World’ side. After each turn @AndrewAAGamer makes:

• 24+ hours for anyone to submit a TripleA file of what they suggest the best completed Allied turn is. (perhaps @trulpen can issue a cut-off notice at any point after the 24 hour mark)
• 24 hours for anyone to vote/rank their top 3 choices. (perhaps 3 points top choice, then 2 points, then 1 point) Must use all votes, can’t just say 3 points to your own proposal. :p
• Trulpen uses his best judgement to execute the proposal with the most points.

I’m all for something like this, although I think a point system will be spammy, cumbersome and not fill that much of a function.

A file post along with some ideas and explanations would be great. I’ll try my best to relate and incorporate.

[AndrewAAGamer]

A ton of input was given. THANK YOU ALL!!! This is exactly what I was hoping for when I started this project and THANK YOU TRULPEN! for trying to coordinate so much varied information. I have the easy part here it seems. Kind of like a real game where the Allies do not always agree on strategy and it makes it hard for them to coordinate together.

Overall my main point of disagreement is going to be how the Med was handled. Job #1 for UK, right after protecting London, is toasting Italy. That was not done and I am betting it is going to come back and haunt the Allies due to Italy having too much money for too long.

If it were me…

So, I am the Allies and I know the order of my priorities. 1) Protect London, 2) Toast Italy, 3) Control the Middle East, 4) Assist Russia in defense of Moscow by both making landings on the Atlantic Wall and providing defensive units in Russia itself.

To accomplish the Protection of London I need to kill the German fleet in SZ110. Without a fleet, the Germans cannot do Sealion which allows me to be aggressive versus defensive. Therefore, any UK1 response is going to include destroying that SZ111 fleet. It would also be great to kill the two German subs in SZ 106 and/or the cruiser and sub in SZ112. But first let’s move on to item #2 Toasting the Italians.

Knocking out the Italian fleets in SZ97 and SZ96 is far easier with the sub Bid in SZ98. By bringing the house to SZ97 the Axis would not, or should not, scramble, which means the Med is already owned by the Allies. So, if I kill both SZ111 and SZ97 fleets I am well on my way to accomplishing my goals. It is too early to worry about other goals at the moment. Now I cannot do SZ111, SZ97 and SZ96 attacks and hit Tobruk or any other fleets; I just do not have enough firepower.

Is that bad? If I ignore the 2 German subs in SZ106 those subs cannot do much harm. At best UK is going to lose $3 in income due to convoy disruption. The US could place a carrier and destroyer in SZ101 as part of their build with fighter protection on land and sea. Since it is unlikely the US is going to move to the Carolines or Queensland in strength till US 4 anyway those ships in SZ101 can still make it to Hawaii by US 3 to be part of the US Armada fighting for the Pacific. This US fleet is too big for the Germans to attack and they cannot escape so at least one sub will die by the US next Turn so the UK only needs one destroyer left over to kill the other one. OK – I can ignore SZ106.

If I ignore SZ112 then the German cruiser will be a blocker later and the German sub will take away Russia’s NO. I do not like that but neither are as important as hosing Italy. Even with the cruiser it would take a major build to go for Sealion so while I would love to kill SZ112 with the 3 fighters scramble I just can’t hit it and hit SZ97 too.

Not killing Tobruk always makes it a little difficult in North Africa however without the Italian fleet those Tobruk units are far less threatening. So, I can ignore them. Too many targets and not enough units to hit them all.
Which will work for us on the German 2 Turn.

Instead of saving the SZ111 fleet I am going to use it. Attack SZ110 with the battleship, cruiser, destroyer from SZ111, destroyer from SZ109, the sub already in SZ110 and 2 fighters from UK. 100% battle and on average only loss is BB hit.
Taranto, SZ97, is 2 fighters from Scotland, bomber from UK, Malta fighter and everything from SZ98 (SS, DD, CA, CV, Tactical). Without a scramble, this is a 100% battle with average loss of 1 unit which is the tactical or bomber if you prefer. Two lucky hits are the tactical and bomber for sure. With a scramble the UK losses are 3.5 units which means the carrier and two fighters from Scotland and possibly the sub too. With a scramble, the Italian fleet still dies and the Germans just lost a fighter and the Italians are severely weakened with the loss of two fighters so we accomplished our goal of hosing Italy either way.

SZ96 is SS and CA from SZ91 plus the Gibraltar fighter. 97.7% battle and on average no losses though may lose the sub. I want this to be a for sure battle because losing this battle is a disaster for the Allies. Even that 0.3% scares me.
So, at the end of UK1 we have a fleet in SZ110 plus a fleet in SZ97. What is the Axis response?

As much as Italy wants to hit SZ97 they really cannot. Italian SS, DD, CA, 2 Ftr and Bmb vs UK SS, DD, CA, CV, 2 Ftr is a 34% battle which means the entire Italian air and navy is dead on Italy 1. Ouch. Better to kill the UK survivors in SZ96 and the French fleet in SZ93. This means Italy is going to be heavily convoy disrupted on Turn 1 and will be lucky to collect more than $5.

When G2 comes the Germans face a dilemma. Do I destroy the SZ110 fleet or the SZ97 fleet? They cannot do both. An all-out attack on SZ97 is going to cost on average 2.5 planes. An all-out attack on SZ 110 is also going to cost 2.5 planes plus the sub and cruiser which removes the German fleet from the game. Either the UK has a strong fleet off UK that rules the seas or Italy is out of the game forever. Both not good scenarios for the Axis.

In other areas, I like stacking Yunnan. I approve of taking Persia. I would have ignored Iraq and instead gone for Ethiopia. At best Russia cannot get to Iraq till R3 so why hit Iraq on UK1 when you could just as easily hit on it UK2? Taking out Ethiopia removes one of the two Italian ground forces in Africa and is a big step to controlling Africa which is Priority #2.

As for strafing FIC that is a risky attack and depends on if you feel you are the weaker Player. 96% chance to win, overall TUV of -3.

• 42% chance loss of fighter
• 37% no loss
• 17% loss of 2 planes
• 2% loss
• 2% draw

The loss of one fighter is an even trade for the 2 Jap infantry. Therefore, the real comparison is the 37% of the time no losses occur for UK versus the 21% of the time it is a bad trade for the UK. As the stronger Player, I would not make that attack.

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

Completely agree about the Allies trying to diminish Italian income so they don’t get out of control. They can use the huge income to protect W Europe, help advance into Russia, and/or keep the Med unoccupied. We should have been able to do with a 50 PU bid in the Atlantic.

Since we are the weaker opponent, would you have recommended doing FIC strafe? I think this next round you will use those soldiers to win Shan State, reducing the units that could support Yunnan or eventually retreat to India.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

Since we are the weaker opponent, would you have recommended doing FIC strafe? I think this next round you will use those soldiers to win Shan State, reducing the units that could support Yunnan or eventually retreat to India.

Hmmm, tough choice. I know when you all were discussing it I was like “Gee I hope they do not do that as it would suck to lose both infantry for nothing. But then what if I got two planes!” I am very risk adverse, as I am a very strong player, so I do not know how much of that comes through biasing my view. I worry more about the bad results versus the good results.
Hmmm, Think, Mull, Ponder, Debate… Overall, I think it is not a good attack. Because if the UK gets both infantry for nothing all that happens is two infantries are dead. Japan is not going to attack Yunnan anyway even if those two infantries are alive. Yes, Shan State now is a much more difficult battle for the Japanese but it is not a major game effecting result. On the other hand, if two planes are lost then the Japanese have a significantly easier time of eventually taking India. I am not sure as the Allies I would trade two Japanese infantries to lose India let’s say one Turn earlier. If I am the Japanese I like that trade very much.

[AndrewAAGamer]

So, as I start my Turn is Rome safe? I did not mention that for Berlin or Tokyo on their first Turn’s as they are always safe on Turn 1. Italy normally must look to make sure Rome is safe however in this case there are no transports in range so yes Rome is safe.

As Italy, I am pleasantly surprised to have my SZ97 fleet, Tobruk and Ethiopia forces all surviving. Wow pretty cool. That gives me lots of choices. The top two would be a) a money grab or b) go for Egypt.

a) Italy can get a bunch of money. I can take Gibraltar with one transport and then land German air there to protect it. The US-UK attack is minimal and Italy can easily hold it for at least one Turn. With the other transport I can beef up my attack on Greece and take it this Turn too. The only downside is I have to ignore Yugoslavia to take Southern France as well. That would provide Italy with two NOs for a total of $25. That is one heck of a payday for Italy on Turn 1.

b) Go for an Egypt capture on I2. Italy can get a total of 10 ground units into Alexandria and 3 into Anglo-Egypt Sudan. By building a single transport Italy would have four more ground units join the attack via the sea on IT2 so that is a total of 17 ground units plus 3 planes and a bombard. UK would probably hit the Sudan with two infantries plus a bombard and 2 planes thus removing 2 defenders and three attackers. Expected attack would be:

• Italy = 8 infantry, 4 artillery, 2 armor, 2 fighters, bomber, 2 cruiser + battleship bombard
• UK = 5 infantry, 3 artillery, mech, 2 armor, 5 fighters, tactical
  Hmmm, nope that is only a 33% attack. Go for the money.

[AndrewAAGamer]

TripleA Turn Summary: Italians round 1

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 4.0

Game History

Round: 1

    Purchase Units - Italians
        Italians buy 1 artillery and 2 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Italians
        2 infantry moved from Southern Italy to 95 Sea Zone
        2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 95 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
        2 infantry moved from 92 Sea Zone to Gibraltar
        1 destroyer moved from 95 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from Northern Italy to 96 Sea Zone
        1 cruiser moved from 95 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
        1 submarine moved from 95 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
        1 battleship and 1 cruiser moved from 97 Sea Zone to 93 Sea Zone
        1 armour and 2 infantry moved from Albania to Greece
        2 fighters moved from Southern Italy to Greece
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Libya to Tunisia
        1 armour and 1 mech_infantry moved from Tobruk to Tunisia
        1 artillery and 2 infantry moved from Ethiopia to British Somaliland
              Italians take British Somaliland from British
        1 infantry moved from Italian Somaliland to British Somaliland
        1 transport moved from 97 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Tobruk to 96 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 96 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from 97 Sea Zone to Greece
        2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
        1 armour moved from Northern Italy to Southern France

    Combat - Italians
        Battle in Gibraltar
        Battle in 93 Sea Zone
            Italians attack with 1 battleship, 2 cruisers and 1 submarine
            French defend with 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer
                Italians roll dice for 1 submarine in 93 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 battleship and 2 cruisers in 93 Sea Zone, round 2 : 3/3 hits, 1.67 expected hits
                French roll dice for 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer in 93 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.83 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Italians
                1 destroyer owned by the French and 1 cruiser owned by the French lost in 93 Sea Zone
            Italians win, taking Gibraltar from British, taking 93 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 battleship, 2 cruisers and 1 submarine remaining. Battle score for attacker is 20
            Casualties for French: 1 cruiser and 1 destroyer
        Battle in 96 Sea Zone
            Italians attack with 1 bomber and 1 destroyer
            British defend with 1 submarine
                Italians roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 destroyer in 96 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 submarine in 96 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                Italians roll dice for 1 bomber and 1 destroyer in 96 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 1.00 expected hits
                British roll dice for 1 submarine in 96 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the British lost in 96 Sea Zone
            Italians win with 1 bomber and 1 destroyer remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for British: 1 submarine
        Battle in Southern France
            Italians attack with 1 armour, 2 artilleries and 2 infantry
            French defend with 1 artillery, 1 factory_minor, 1 harbour and 1 infantry
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 2 artilleries and 2 infantry in Southern France, round 2 : 3/5 hits, 1.83 expected hits
                French roll dice for 1 artillery and 1 infantry in Southern France, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the French, 1 infantry owned by the Italians and 1 artillery owned by the French lost in Southern France
            Italians win, taking Southern France from French with 1 armour, 2 artilleries and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 4
            Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for French: 1 artillery and 1 infantry
        Battle in Greece
            Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 3 infantry
            Neutral_Allies defend with 4 infantry
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 3 infantry in Greece, round 2 : 3/7 hits, 2.50 expected hits
                Neutral_Allies roll dice for 4 infantry in Greece, round 2 : 1/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                3 infantry owned by the Neutral_Allies and 1 infantry owned by the Italians lost in Greece
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 2 infantry in Greece, round 3 : 2/6 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Neutral_Allies roll dice for 1 infantry in Greece, round 3 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the Neutral_Allies lost in Greece
            Italians win, taking Greece from Neutral_Allies with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 2 fighters and 2 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 9
            Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
            Casualties for Neutral_Allies: 4 infantry
        Battle in Tunisia
            Italians attack with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
            French defend with 1 infantry
                Italians roll dice for 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry in Tunisia, round 2 : 2/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits
                French roll dice for 1 infantry in Tunisia, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits
                1 infantry owned by the French lost in Tunisia
            Italians win, taking Tunisia from French with 1 armour, 1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
            Casualties for French: 1 infantry

    Non Combat Move - Italians
        2 infantry moved from Tobruk to Libya
        1 bomber moved from 96 Sea Zone to Southern Italy
        2 fighters moved from Greece to Southern Italy
        1 aaGun moved from Northern Italy to Southern France
        1 aaGun moved from Northern Italy to France
        2 aaGuns and 4 infantry moved from Southern Italy to Northern Italy

    Place Units - Italians
        1 artillery and 2 infantry placed in Northern Italy

    Turn Complete - Italians
        Italians collect 16 PUs; end with 16 PUs
        Objective Italians 1 Control The Mediterranean: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 21 PUs
        Objective Italians 2 Roman Empire: Italians met a national objective for an additional 5 PUs; end with 26 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Italians : 3.00
British : -0.33
French : 0.17
Neutral_Allies : -0.67

Savegame

[Arthur Bomber Harris]

@AndrewAAGamer Yikes, that is the strongest that I have seen Italy in most OOB games in recent memory. Gibraltar will hold on for at least another turn, making for a very lucrative I2. That initial 50 bid didn’t make that much of a difference in the early game where it should have been a huge boost for the Allied opening.

I assume that the fast moving canopeners will be built in N Italy next turn? I am surprised that you didn’t build at least one mech this turn so you don’t accidentally lose a tank early on.

[AndrewAAGamer]

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris said in Tutor game: AndrewAAGamer (X) vs trulpen [and everyone else] (A+50) OOB:

I assume that the fast moving canopeners will be built in N Italy next turn? I am surprised that you didn’t build at least one mech this turn so you don’t accidentally lose a tank early on.

I was more concerned about getting extra firepower for the Yugoslavia battle next Turn. However, thinking about it now, based on your suggestion, you are probably right. Buying a mechanized infantry this Turn would have been a good idea. See, I make mistakes too. Everyone does.