Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement

[Cernel]

In Revised OOB, if a unit was already loaded before the turn, can you offload it during Non Combat Movement, if the transport offloaded something during Combat Movement, but only as long as you offload it into the same territory? And, one way or another, nothing changes whether the transport took part in a victorious sea battle too or not?

For example, you have 1 infantry already loaded on the transport. You load 1 second infantry on the transport, sending it into a sea borne assault, during Combat Movement. Then, if you conquer it, can you offload the already loaded infantry, to the same territory, during Non Combat Movement? And how about if the already loaded unit is an AA gun, rest being the same?

Also, I’m fairly sure that at least for any rulesets from Revised LHTR onwards a transport may never offload in both Combat and Non Combat Movement, which is the case for Classic too. So the matter here, then, would be whether Revised OOB is the only one exception to this general rule or not.

Shorter version, I’m substantially asking if in Revised OOB you can ever offload in both Combat and Non Combat Movement and, if so, in what cases (full list)?

[Krieghund]

@Cernel:

In Revised OOB, if a unit was already loaded before the turn, can you offload it during Non Combat Movement, if the transport offloaded something during Combat Movement, but only as long as you offload it into the same territory? And, one way or another, nothing changes whether the transport took part in a victorious sea battle too or not?

Correct.

@Cernel:

For example, you have 1 infantry already loaded on the transport. You load 1 second infantry on the transport, sending it into a sea borne assault, during Combat Movement. Then, if you conquer it, can you offload the already loaded infantry, to the same territory, during Non Combat Movement? And how about if the already loaded unit is an AA gun, rest being the same?

These are both legal.

@Cernel:

Also, I’m fairly sure that at least for any rulesets from Revised LHTR onwards a transport may never offload in both Combat and Non Combat Movement, which is the case for Classic too. So the matter here, then, would be whether Revised OOB is the only one exception to this general rule or not.

The original Europe (1999) and Pacific (2001) games also allow this, but no others do.

@Cernel:

Shorter version, I’m substantially asking if in Revised OOB you can ever offload in both Combat and Non Combat Movement and, if so, in what cases (full list)?

The only circumstances under which a transport may offload in both combat and noncombat movement are those that you have described above.

[Cernel]

@Krieghund I have some doubts and wish to have some further confirmations, in case. Are any of the following series of actions legal, in Revised OOB:

1. Starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 land units onto it, during Combat Move (except AA Guns, as they cannot move yet), sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 unit into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle and the land battle where the unit was offloaded (this last thing may be granted, once the sea battle is won, in case the territory is empty or having capturable units only), then the transport can offload the other 1 land unit, but only into the same territory, during Non Combat Move, as the special rule that transports that took part in victorious sea battles can load or offload, but not both, during Non Combat Move, allows offloading from transports that already offloaded, during Combat Movement, just restricting them to the same territory where they already did it (practically I’m asking if here we can have a case of a same transport offloading both during Combat Move and Non Combat Move, when starting the turn empty).

2. Instead, with all the same actions except only no naval battle, this sequence of action would be illegal already before ending the Combat Move phase, as I cannot load a land unit during Combat Move without sending it into combat (either as cargo of a transport taking part in a battle or as attacker in a landing on a hostile territory or both).

3. Starting the turn with an empty transport, loading 2 land units onto it, during Combat Move (except AA Guns, as they cannot move yet), sending the transport into a naval battle and offloading 1 or 2 units into a sea borne assault, during Combat Move, winning the naval battle, then the transport cannot load during Non Combat Move (differently from point 1, in this case it is not offloading during Non Combat Move), as the special rule that transports that took part in victorious sea battles can load or offload, but not both, during Non Combat Move never allows loading onto transports that already offloaded, during Combat Movement, anyways.

This is what I understand from the rulebook, but I’m unsure.

[Krieghund]

1. This is not legal, as any unit that loads onto a transport during combat movement must take part in an amphibious assault in the same turn. If one of the units on the transport had been loaded on a previous turn, it would be able to wait until noncombat movement to offload in that situation.
2. Yes, but simply being cargo on a transport during a naval battle doesn’t meet the requirement for loading in combat movement. The loaded unit(s) must actually participate in an amphibious assault (or at least attempt to).
3. Correct, except that both units must offload for the amphibious assault.

[Cernel]

@Krieghund Ah ok. So, practically, in Revised OOB, as well as in every single one of all rulesets from Classic 1st Edition till 1942 Second Edition, there is absolutely no way a transport starting its own turn empty (or with only allied units in it) can both take part in a sea battle and offload into a friendly territory, on the same turn. Only for Revised OOB, and the original Europe and Pacific, but not Classic nor any games from Revised LHTR onwards, there is the special exception that a transport can be in a sea battle, then offload units (in a friendly territory) during Non Combat Move, but this rule applies only to already loaded units (at start turn) (thus only for transports that had any of those). Correct?

So, in practice, the special Revised OOB rule that transports that took part in victorious sea battles can load or offload, but not both, during Non Combat Move, applies only to transports sent into battle without loading nor offloading, for the first item (loading during Non Combat Move), and only to transports that had any units already on board at start turn, for the second item (offloading during Non Combat Move).

Did I get all right now?

[Krieghund]

Yes, that’s correct.

[simon33]

So if an empty transport loads one inf and assaults a territory, it can’t load a second inf on ncm. Hmm.

[simon33]

I didn’t see the rule that a transport is finished for the turn once it has unloaded in revised. Is it there?

I also missed the one about units needing to offload if being loaded on combat movement.

Perhaps these things are in the FAQ.

[Krieghund]

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

So if an empty transport loads one inf and assaults a territory, it can’t load a second inf on ncm. Hmm.

I see nothing in the above conversation that suggests this.

[Krieghund]

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

I didn’t see the rule that a transport is finished for the turn once it has unloaded in revised. Is it there?

No, only that it is done moving (see pages 13 and 31).

I also missed the one about units needing to offload if being loaded on combat movement.

Page 11:

In [the combat move] phase, you may move as many of your units into as many hostile territories and sea zones as you wish. To do this, move your attacking units into the desired spaces on the game board; these may be occupied (contain enemy combat units) or enemy-controlled but unoccupied.

Page 11:

You can move units into friendly spaces en route to hostile spaces during [the combat move] phase, but they can end their move in friendly spaces only during the noncombat move phase.

Page 31:

Transporting Your Units:

This German transport has a number of options. It could:
• Load the infantry from Algeria, move, and load one artillery from Southern Europe;
• Load the infantry from Algeria, move, and load the infantry from Libya;
• Move, then load one artillery from Southern Europe and the infantry from Libya; or
• Load any one of those units.
It could then:
• Hold onto its cargo and remain at sea (noncombat);
• OfFload one or more units in Western Europe, Southern Europe, Algeria, Libya, or Balkans (noncombat);
• Conduct an amphibious assault on Gibraltar (combat); or
• Engage the UK destroyer in sea zone 15 (combat).

There is also an FAQ entry that indirectly addresses the issue:

Q. Pieces were loaded onto a transport in a previous turn. This turn, the transport moves into a combat situation and survives the naval battle. Could they unload into a friendly territory during non-combat movement?

A. Yes.

If it were legal for units to load in combat movement without performing an amphibious assault in the same turn, this question would not need to specify that the units were loaded in a previous turn.

[simon33]

@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

So if an empty transport loads one inf and assaults a territory, it can’t load a second inf on ncm. Hmm.

I see nothing in the above conversation that suggests this.

So it can? I still don’t understand all the restrictions then.

Can it only load into the space which was unused in combat movement? One would assume so. If it carries a unit loaded in a previous round, can that unit offload to a different territory?

On the wording in the rulebook, I can’t see how it is illegal to load a transport, move into a hostile sea zone but not unload. But you are telling me that it is. Sorry, don’t mean to be difficult. Just trying to get this right in every scenario.

[Krieghund]

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

So if an empty transport loads one inf and assaults a territory, it can’t load a second inf on ncm. Hmm.

I see nothing in the above conversation that suggests this.

So it can? I still don’t understand all the restrictions then.

On further reflection, it can’t. (Sorry, I was paying more attention to the fact that your question was outside the scope of the original question than I was to actually answering it!) From page 31:

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

If it carries a unit loaded in a previous round, can that unit offload to a different territory?

No. Also from page 31:

A transport can never offload in two territories during a single turn, nor can it offload cargo onto another transport.

On the wording in the rulebook, I can’t see how it is illegal to load a transport, move into a hostile sea zone but not unload. But you are telling me that it is. Sorry, don’t mean to be difficult. Just trying to get this right in every scenario.

The rules that I quoted in my previous post indicate that movement done in the combat move phase must end in territories or sea zones that are either enemy-occupied or enemy-controlled (with one noted exception, which isn’t relevant here). In the case of transported units, this may be a two-step process, as there may be a sea battle before the units can be delivered to their destination, which in turn leads to an exception if the sea battle is unsuccessful. However, the amphibious assault must at least be attempted in order to satisfy the requirement that the movement of the transported units in combat movement end in such a space.

The reason that units loaded in a previous turn get around this requirement is that they were not loaded in the current combat move phase, so they are not required to end their move in a hostile space.

[Cernel]

@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@simon33 said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

So if an empty transport loads one inf and assaults a territory, it can’t load a second inf on ncm. Hmm.

I see nothing in the above conversation that suggests this.

So it can? I still don’t understand all the restrictions then.

On further reflection, it can’t. (Sorry, I was paying more attention to the fact that your question was outside the scope of the original question than I was to actually answering it!) From page 31:

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

Does “a transport that has been in combat” mean only a transport that took part in a sea battle (as I always assumed this was the only meaning), or is a transport that offloaded units into combat from a friendly sea zone also counted as “having been in combat” (I always assumed it wasn’t, and this part of the rulebook was only referring to transports actually moved to the battleboard, on that turn)?

If it carries a unit loaded in a previous round, can that unit offload to a different territory?

No. Also from page 31:

A transport can never offload in two territories during a single turn, nor can it offload cargo onto another transport.

On the wording in the rulebook, I can’t see how it is illegal to load a transport, move into a hostile sea zone but not unload. But you are telling me that it is. Sorry, don’t mean to be difficult. Just trying to get this right in every scenario.

The rules that I quoted in my previous post indicate that movement done in the combat move phase must end in territories or sea zones that are either enemy-occupied or enemy-controlled (with one noted exception, which isn’t relevant here). In the case of transported units, this may be a two-step process, as there may be a sea battle before the units can be delivered to their destination, which in turn leads to an exception if the sea battle is unsuccessful. However, the amphibious assault must at least be attempted in order to satisfy the requirement that the movement of the transported units in combat movement end in such a space.

The reason that units loaded in a previous turn get around this requirement is that they were not loaded in the current combat move phase, so they are not required to end their move in a hostile space.

I, of course, take your word, but how can be inferred from the rulebook (or any clarifications) that ending your movement as cargo into a hostile sea zone (thus even being moved as cargo on the battleboard itself) does not possibly count for satisfying the requirement to “end their move in a hostile space”?

[Krieghund]

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

Does “a transport that has been in combat” mean only a transport that took part in a sea battle (as I always assumed this was the only meaning), or is a transport that offloaded units into combat from a friendly sea zone also counted as “having been in combat” (I always assumed it wasn’t, and this part of the rulebook was only referring to transports actually moved to the battleboard, on that turn)?

That’s a fair point. However, a transport’s move is over once it’s been in combat and/or offloaded. Since the rules state that a transport cannot offload to more than one territory, it’s fair to assume that it also may not load from a different territory after offloading (which would requiring “moving” to a different coast within the same sea zone). That would mean that if it were to load again after offloading, it would need to load from that same territory, and since any units in the amphibiously assaulted territory have been in combat, they may not load.

I, of course, take your word, but how can be inferred from the rulebook (or any clarifications) that ending your movement as cargo into a hostile sea zone (thus even being moved as cargo on the battleboard itself) does not possibly count for satisfying the requirement to “end their move in a hostile space”?

The loaded units ended their movement on the transport, in a friendly sea zone. The movement of the transport after they were loaded was not theirs, but the transport’s. In order to fulfill the requirement, they must offload into a hostile territory, thus ending their movement there.

[Cernel]

@Krieghund Thanks for the clarification on loaded units. That makes definitely sense, even though what made me think that it was possible to load some units in a transport and sending the transport into battle, keeping the units on board, was something else in the rulebook (I guess I’ll talk about it in another post, to keep this shorter).

On the other hand, I’m still confused on the

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

part. Since you quoted this to answer an example in which the transport was offloading to combat with no mention of being itself involved in any sea battles, can you confirm that this excerpt from the rulebook is, instead, referring only to transports that have been in victorious sea battles (as I’ve always understood it), and not to transports that have performed amphibious assaults from friendly sea zones (I know it doesn’t actually matter, once we otherwise completely rule out loading after offloading on a same turn, but just want to be sure on the wording).

Also the concept that you cannot load after having offloaded looks to me like something that would have benefitted from an official errata, telling that offloading bars not only moving, but also loading. I actually never had any real doubt about the fact that you could never offload, then load, on a same turn, and it is interesting that you are inferring it from expanding the no multiple territory offload into, practically, saying that applies to loading too. I actually feel that is maybe a bit too much of free reading, and, personally (beside the rules and the examples in general quite consistently hinting to the fact that, when doing both, first you load then you offload, never the opposite way around), the way I infer it is, instead, by expanding the bridging rules, as it would make really no sense to say that you can load after offloading, if the transport moved, but you cannot do the same if it remained in the same sea zone (bridging) (as the bridging rules only are actually clear you cannot load after having offloaded).

But, can we all agree that the rulebook itself leaves a bit to be desired, as far as clarity goes? In my opinion, for example, LHTR is much clearer. Ayone else thinks the same?

[Panther]

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

But, can we all agree that the rulebook itself leaves a bit to be desired, as far as clarity goes? In my opinion, for example, LHTR is much clearer. Ayone else thinks the same?

Dealing much with the rulebooks I definitely see an improvement of clarity over time. LHTR in my opinion sorts the rules clearer, indeed, and the rulebooks from Anniversary onwards are structured pretty well and are easier understandable. The written rules and rulesets have improved a lot, as I think.

[Cernel]

@Panther I actually feel LHTR is the clearest of all rulebooks, also clearer than everything following, but just my opinion.

[Cernel]

@Krieghund said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

Does “a transport that has been in combat” mean only a transport that took part in a sea battle (as I always assumed this was the only meaning), or is a transport that offloaded units into combat from a friendly sea zone also counted as “having been in combat” (I always assumed it wasn’t, and this part of the rulebook was only referring to transports actually moved to the battleboard, on that turn)?

That’s a fair point. However, a transport’s move is over once it’s been in combat and/or offloaded. Since the rules state that a transport cannot offload to more than one territory, it’s fair to assume that it also may not load from a different territory after offloading (which would requiring “moving” to a different coast within the same sea zone). That would mean that if it were to load again after offloading, it would need to load from that same territory, and since any units in the amphibiously assaulted territory have been in combat, they may not load.

Thinking over this matter on more general terms, I think this “solution” of taking the “one territory only” offload restriction, saying that is “fair to assume that it also may not load from a different territory after offloading”, is not actually ruling out doing the same entirely during Non Combat Move.

For example, according to the rulebook and half-expanding the “no multiple territories” offload rules, to affect both loading and offloading, yet affecting loading only after having happened due to offloading only, I believe this situation would be legal:

In Non Combat Move, I load 1 infantry and 1 second mobile land unit (could be a second infantry) into a transport (both the transports and the loaded units have not moved, nor bridged, nor taken part in any Combat, of course), move the transport into a friendly land zone, offload 1 or 2 of these land units into a friendly territory, then load 1 unmoved land unit from that territory (or 2, but it would not make sense loading 2, as it would imply exchanging at least 1 infantry for just another infantry).

To be more specific, during Non Combat Move, I could load 1 infantry and 1 aa gun into a transport, move that transport to another friendly sea zone, offload both land units into a territory and, then, load 1 unmoved tank from that same territory into my transport, keeping it on board. Or I could only load and offload 1 infantry, underusing the transport capacity, then loading the tank (this way I could also say the tank may not be even using the space used by the infantry).

I believe that, according to the rulebook, the move above would be legal, and also in accordance with whatever reasonable conceptual expansion of the “no multiple territories” offload rule. However, I’ve also no doubt that this is not the intent of the original author, if only because it would be absurd that bridging gives you any more restrictions than transporting on the move.

So, would the move I described be legal or not? Could I do it while playing Axis & Allies Revised? I believe it is legal if we read the rulebook literally, but I also believe it is clearly contrary to what I understand was the actual intent of the original author (so, in my opinion, it should be illegal, and, if the game would be actively supported, I believe the original author would publish an errata or clarification, ruling it out, if asked).

Or am I overlooking something, here?

Anyways, I believe that this ruleset, we have here, is badly in need of an official “Errata”, generally expanding the “no loading after offloading” rule, that currently strictly applies to bridging only. Not sure what should be the preferred way one (me?) would have to go to try to obtain such an official clarification (?), but am I correct to presume this would never happen, anyways, since, in my experience, nobody really cares about updating clarifications of games that are not selling anymore (very sorry if I’m wrong).

Also, regardless of the meaning of “being in combat” in the special rule (but I’m still curious about it, thanks):

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

I want to point out that, logically, this cannot possibly be used as a way to say that this is saying you cannot offload during Combat Move and load during Non Combat Move, on the same turn, otherwise, then, it would also be saying that, under these conditions, you also cannot load during Combat Move and offload during Non Combat Move, that we have clarified is not the case, as I can do that if I have only 1 unit already on board. Other than that, the logical costruct of the phrase itself cannot be really read in any other ways but saying that the proibition of doing both is really only referring to those specific actions, made “after combat”, not to anything that may have been done before combat (as also since that transport, that has been in combat, may have already done both!).

Please let me know everything that I’m getting wrong or overlooking. Thanks.

[Cernel]

@Cernel Obviously, the case in which we are not using more total space than the maximum is irrelevant, as, in the example, I could just load the tank before offloading the infantry, then.

[Krieghund]

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

On the other hand, I’m still confused on the

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

part. Since you quoted this to answer an example in which the transport was offloading to combat with no mention of being itself involved in any sea battles, can you confirm that this excerpt from the rulebook is, instead, referring only to transports that have been in victorious sea battles (as I’ve always understood it), and not to transports that have performed amphibious assaults from friendly sea zones (I know it doesn’t actually matter, once we otherwise completely rule out loading after offloading on a same turn, but just want to be sure on the wording).

Your understanding is correct.

Also the concept that you cannot load after having offloaded looks to me like something that would have benefitted from an official errata, telling that offloading bars not only moving, but also loading.

I agree, but we are where we are.

I actually never had any real doubt about the fact that you could never offload, then load, on a same turn, and it is interesting that you are inferring it from expanding the no multiple territory offload into, practically, saying that applies to loading too. I actually feel that is maybe a bit too much of free reading, and, personally (beside the rules and the examples in general quite consistently hinting to the fact that, when doing both, first you load then you offload, never the opposite way around), the way I infer it is, instead, by expanding the bridging rules, as it would make really no sense to say that you can load after offloading, if the transport moved, but you cannot do the same if it remained in the same sea zone (bridging) (as the bridging rules only are actually clear you cannot load after having offloaded).

I also agree that the bridging rules are in conflict with the standard transport rules, and that’s part of the problem in interpreting the standard rules. In fact, the bridging rules specifically state that a transport can’t load after unloading - it’s the standard rules that imply (not state) that it can. Should they be consistent? Absolutely. But can we apply rules for a specific situation (bridging) more broadly? Maybe…

But, can we all agree that the rulebook itself leaves a bit to be desired, as far as clarity goes? In my opinion, for example, LHTR is much clearer. Ayone else thinks the same?

The rulebook is a mess. That’s part of the reason that LHTR was necessary.

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

@Panther I actually feel LHTR is the clearest of all rulebooks, also clearer than everything following, but just my opinion.

LHTR was written, pretty much from scratch, by a committee consisting of Larry, myself, and a group of several experienced A&A players. Rulebooks from AA42 on were almost all based on prior rulebooks heavily modified by Larry and me. I wanted to rewrite them from scratch also, but I was never allowed to. The only one I was allowed to write from scratch was AA14, being a whole new game.

@Cernel said in Offloading In Both Combat And Non Combat Movement:

Thinking over this matter on more general terms, I think this “solution” of taking the “one territory only” offload restriction, saying that is “fair to assume that it also may not load from a different territory after offloading”, is not actually ruling out doing the same entirely during Non Combat Move.

For example, according to the rulebook and half-expanding the “no multiple territories” offload rules, to affect both loading and offloading, yet affecting loading only after having happened due to offloading only, I believe this situation would be legal:

In Non Combat Move, I load 1 infantry and 1 second mobile land unit (could be a second infantry) into a transport (both the transports and the loaded units have not moved, nor bridged, nor taken part in any Combat, of course), move the transport into a friendly land zone, offload 1 or 2 of these land units into a friendly territory, then load 1 unmoved land unit from that territory (or 2, but it would not make sense loading 2, as it would imply exchanging at least 1 infantry for just another infantry).

To be more specific, during Non Combat Move, I could load 1 infantry and 1 aa gun into a transport, move that transport to another friendly sea zone, offload both land units into a territory and, then, load 1 unmoved tank from that same territory into my transport, keeping it on board. Or I could only load and offload 1 infantry, underusing the transport capacity, then loading the tank (this way I could also say the tank may not be even using the space used by the infantry).

I believe that, according to the rulebook, the move above would be legal, and also in accordance with whatever reasonable conceptual expansion of the “no multiple territories” offload rule. However, I’ve also no doubt that this is not the intent of the original author, if only because it would be absurd that bridging gives you any more restrictions than transporting on the move.

So, would the move I described be legal or not? Could I do it while playing Axis & Allies Revised? I believe it is legal if we read the rulebook literally, but I also believe it is clearly contrary to what I understand was the actual intent of the original author (so, in my opinion, it should be illegal, and, if the game would be actively supported, I believe the original author would publish an errata or clarification, ruling it out, if asked).

Or am I overlooking something, here?

That all sounds reasonable.

Anyways, I believe that this ruleset, we have here, is badly in need of an official “Errata”, generally expanding the “no loading after offloading” rule, that currently strictly applies to bridging only. Not sure what should be the preferred way one (me?) would have to go to try to obtain such an official clarification (?), but am I correct to presume this would never happen, anyways, since, in my experience, nobody really cares about updating clarifications of games that are not selling anymore (very sorry if I’m wrong).

You’re not wrong.

Also, regardless of the meaning of “being in combat” in the special rule (but I’m still curious about it, thanks):

A transport that has been in combat may load or offload after combat, but never both.

I want to point out that, logically, this cannot possibly be used as a way to say that this is saying you cannot offload during Combat Move and load during Non Combat Move, on the same turn, otherwise, then, it would also be saying that, under these conditions, you also cannot load during Combat Move and offload during Non Combat Move, that we have clarified is not the case, as I can do that if I have only 1 unit already on board. Other than that, the logical costruct of the phrase itself cannot be really read in any other ways but saying that the proibition of doing both is really only referring to those specific actions, made “after combat”, not to anything that may have been done before combat (as also since that transport, that has been in combat, may have already done both!).

Correct.