Germany against the Netherlands; Japanese wiping the American navy

[A Former User]

Interesting thoughts guys. Looks like I will need to figure out some ways to play this pressure game. Doing so with Russia and China against Japan seems a little difficult, but yeah America and the CW can definitely play that game well. How do you apply pressure from every angle though? I feel like I do not have enough forces for that but maybe I am going about it wrong.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Thanks for the tip. I was going to attack the Netherlands this morning on my way to Paris but I took your advice and bent Belgium over instead. It makes perfect sense.

I’m not sure if it’s a good plan or not but I’m piling up some American ships on the build chart without finishing their production (getting them to within one space from mobilizing). I have built some in the Pacific but I’m holding these ones back to save them from the Japanese first strike. Is this a good plan or have I been sniffing too much paint lately with my renovations and assembling/painting my armies?

[Munck]

@KingKuba:

How do you apply pressure from every angle though?

Here are some examples:

With Russia:
Take Mongolia, and perhaps reenforce Vladivostok with a few units and relocate a small factory from the European theatre.
This forces Japan to keep some troops in Manchuoku. (+ there is a Victory Point on the line. End-of-game who has the most units on Japans/Russias their shared border gets a point.).

With China:
LL some offensive units to KMT. Take a jab at the Japanese once in a while. Every time the Japanese loose a unit, a new one has to be built. These IPP can not be used to building ships.

Applying pressure can also be just the threat of attacking.

[Munck]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

I’m not sure if it’s a good plan or not but I’m piling up some American ships on the build chart without finishing their production (getting them to within one space from mobilizing). I have built some in the Pacific but I’m holding these ones back to save them from the Japanese first strike. Is this a good plan or have I been sniffing too much paint lately with my renovations and assembling/painting my armies?

I don’t think the Japanese first strike capability is a problem for the US fleet in San Francisco.
Without telling to much, remember that the Japanese can only use it one time - to attack one territory.
The Allied player need to move his fleet around taking this into consideration.

Old A&A strategies like stacking a huge fleet as the US and protecting it with blockers takes a while to “un-learn”  :-)

On the positive side, your strategy gives you another option. You can LL your ships to the UK with short notice. We usually do that to reenforce the UK fleet if Germany has been too aggressive in the Atlantic.

[Rank Carcass]

@Munck:

@GeneralHandGrenade:

I’m not sure if it’s a good plan or not but I’m piling up some American ships on the build chart without finishing their production (getting them to within one space from mobilizing). I have built some in the Pacific but I’m holding these ones back to save them from the Japanese first strike. Is this a good plan or have I been sniffing too much paint lately with my renovations and assembling/painting my armies?

I don’t think the Japanese first strike capability is not a problem for the US fleet in San Francisco.
Without telling to much, remember that the Japanese can only use it one time - to attack one territory.
The Allied player need to move his fleet around taking this into consideration.

Old A&A strategies like stacking a huge fleet as the US and protecting it with blockers takes a while to “un-learn”  :-)

On the positive side, your strategy gives you another option. You can LL your ships to the UK with short notice. We usually do that to reenforce the UK fleet if Germany has been too aggressive in the Atlantic.

This also gives the US fleet flexibility to place these ships at any of its shipyards. Can use them on both sides if needed.
Japan surprise strike is only on its first attack. This may be only one of a land or sea zone. Often the US would move Japan out of position, so either the British fleet or Calcutta if possible are good alternatives for the surprise attack. Usually our winning Japanese games leave the US out of the war as long as possible, smacking down China and the FEC first, then turning on the US next.

[A Former User]

Thanks for the suggestions Munck, I will definitely try these out next time I am playing as the Soviet Union and China. Do you guys pile up all your Chinese units, spread them out, or a little of both? I want to try and find a balance so I can pressure the Japanese without leaving my units to vulnerable to getting wiped out by Japanese troops.

[Rank Carcass]

@KingKuba:

Thanks for the suggestions Munck, I will definitely try these out next time I am playing as the Soviet Union and China. Do you guys pile up all your Chinese units, spread them out, or a little of both? I want to try and find a balance so I can pressure the Japanese without leaving my units to vulnerable to getting wiped out by Japanese troops.

I was playing the KMT a few days ago KingKuba. With the air force and coastal bombardment Japan can bring in, its very difficult as China to hold them back. Unless Japan switches focus to somewhere else. To delay the inevitable slaughter of China I withdrew all forces but militia from the coast, into a defensive line both and sout through CCP. Except for the territory next to Hong Kong I like to keep that one also. Then after Japan landed in China, I counter attacked their week spots. Stacked the crap out of yunnan to keep the Burma road open. sent lend lease artillery and AAA  from CW, French  and US each turn, that China pairs with cavalry. This doesn’t stop Japan but it costs them some land units they can’t use on FEC or spend building a fleet. If Japan shows any weakness attack it, but retreat if its strong. Separate the Japanese by spreading your stacks, so they need to spread out and hold Chinese land with troops. Then when possible reinforce China with FEC troops, while harassing its fleet.

China and FEC need to fight Japan like guerilla warfare, never fight even odds, keep moving back. Delay the Japanese until US can help you put.

Hope this helps

[Munck]

@KingKuba:

Thanks for the suggestions Munck, I will definitely try these out next time I am playing as the Soviet Union and China. Do you guys pile up all your Chinese units, spread them out, or a little of both? I want to try and find a balance so I can pressure the Japanese without leaving my units to vulnerable to getting wiped out by Japanese troops.

Remember, KMT & US moves/attacks together. So you can use US planes in combination with your (hopefully) large number of weak KMT land units. I’ll leave you to ponder how exactly you can make it happen  8-)

(this of cause require that the US is at war)

[Chris_Henry]

First, I just want to add something for you to consider in the future. Doesn’t pertain to your current game, but something to think about if you ever end up playing with the Netherlands Fights Back Expansion.

If using that expansion, the Dutch are their own playable power, and their IPP’s don’t go to the CW. While true, they would get the money in exile still if you attack the Netherlands before Japan attacks the DEI, it’s not as strong as combining that income with the CW, which is obviously your concern here.

So again, it’s more of a reminder of potential strategy change if playing with that expansion in the future!  :-)

To address your actual question, you of course raise a good point. That’s a fair sum of cash going to the CW early on if the Japanese cannot strike for a couple of turns in the DEI.

I would say avoiding the Netherlands early on could definitely be a good route to go.

One thing I would say though, and this could be unrealistic, but you never know I guess, is to watch out for the UK deciding to attack the Netherlands themselves. Yes, the 10 IPP penalty for attacking a minor is steep. But if your the UK and you’re worried about the Dutch not being attacked for, say 3 turns after France falls, maybe you decide to take that risk and attack the Netherlands, and whatever DEI islands you can reach. You might end up recouping that money you lost in declaring war right away.

This would also give the UK a beachhead on mainland Europe. With the negatives of amphibious assaults, the Axis of course wouldn’t want this. A lot would have to be in favor of the Allies for that to actually hold past one turn, but circumstances being applied, it could potentially not be good.

Again, not saying this is best practice by any stretch. Just saying it would be something to look out for. You’d have to see how the game is playing out of course. The Allies could notice that Japan is realistically multiple turns away from considering an attack on the DEI, and could maybe find this worth while.

Probably too far fetched, I don’t necessarily think I would do this as the Allies. It’s more of a lesson in paying attention to what your opponent is doing, or could do I guess!

[A Former User]

That sounds like a good way to go about playing the KMT Rank Carcass. The people in my group usually do not lend-lease to KMT because they find it to be a waste of time. Even though the KMT may still end up getting beat, as long as you do not get horrible rolls, you will be able to force the Japanese player to expend resources replacing them. I think that this is the part the people in my group do not understand or just do not care much about.

I will definitely be pondering how to get the KMT/US to do some good joint strikes. I will probably just end up sending a small air force in order to get some firepower, I would not mind getting a US Marine over there either haha.

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

[Chris_Henry]

@KingKuba:

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

Haha like I said, 100% hypothetical. It’s definitely in the realm of could happen, but not at all likely too. I like to flip the script on some of these and think “what’s even in the realm of possibility?”. I like to try and think what the opponent might do, or what I might do if I was in their shoes.

Agreed on other posts re the Japanese fleet though. Try and spread them thin by hitting in multiple theaters. South Pacific, Central Pacific, China, Southeast Asia, Soviet Border Clashes. Because you’re right, if you let the Japanese sit back and build up a navy, it’ll become out of control, and they can hack at the Allies piecemeal if they catch them on the back foot. Trying to maintain some initiative in more than one of the theaters above is probably the best way to combat this. Wait until the right time for a major blow when they’re unsupported or spread thin enough to get a sound victory!

[Rank Carcass]

@Chris_Henry:

@KingKuba:

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

Haha like I said, 100% hypothetical. It’s definitely in the realm of could happen, but not at all likely too. I like to flip the script on some of these and think “what’s even in the realm of possibility?”. I like to try and think what the opponent might do, or what I might do if I was in their shoes.

I  love this kinda stuff. This type of play while rare, can be a really entertaining twist. CCP or KMT leaving China. It’s all situational like attacking Spain or Portugal for a US naval base, costs 10$ make the French pay most of that or share the cost. This isn’t really any different Chris good points.

[Munck]

@KingKuba:

The people in my group usually do not lend-lease to KMT because they find it to be a waste of time. Even though the KMT may still end up getting beat, as long as you do not get horrible rolls, you will be able to force the Japanese player to expend resources replacing them. I think that this is the part the people in my group do not understand or just do not care much about.

If this is the case, you have a good chance of winning the game  :mrgreen:

One thing is the “harassment” of the Japanese, as discussed. Another important thing is the Victory Points. Take a look and see which are “doable” for each Alliance. The tipping point may well be found in China - for all three  :-)

When it comes to the Chinese theatre, expert A&A players are probably worst off at playing GW, because of obsolete knowledge.

[Chris_Henry]

@Rank:

@Chris_Henry:

@KingKuba:

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

Haha like I said, 100% hypothetical. It’s definitely in the realm of could happen, but not at all likely too. I like to flip the script on some of these and think “what’s even in the realm of possibility?”. I like to try and think what the opponent might do, or what I might do if I was in their shoes.

I  love this kinda stuff. This type of play while rare, can be a really entertaining twist. CCP or KMT leaving China. It’s all situational like attacking Spain or Portugal for a US naval base, costs 10$ make the French pay most of that or share the cost. This isn’t really any different Chris good points.

Thanks Rank, I’m right there with you! Exactly, it’s ALL situational. There are a lot of different things that may present themselves. I think we all forget sometimes that the Allies have the ability to attack the little guys too, if they really wanted to. If I see an opening that I think will benefit me, you bet I’m going to seriously consider it, despite how far fetched it may seem!

[A Former User]

I like the ideas of throwing in some twists in strategies every now and then. Keeps things interesting. I will consider attacking minor countries for strategic reasons like Portugal, the Azores islands, and a couple of Portuguese territories in southern Africa.

Chris, I saw the question you posted about Germany using the Lightning War ability against the Soviets on the global war game website. I actually have considered doing that, using the medium armor, mechanized infantry, and armored cars. I considered going to Russia’s major factories rather than Moscow so they can not build much except militia. Granted I would need to attack at least 3 different territories which is very difficult, but it is doable. Especially if you do not sign the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and take eastern Poland and maybe even Lithuania for yourself. Of course you leave the West exposed to France and the CW which sucks but it is just a fun thought. I have considered doing it because I want to see what happens and I want the Soviets and the West get involved in a war. Japan can even side with the Allies in order to attack the Soviets I think? Correct me if I wrong, but I could’ve sworn I read that somewhere.

[Chris_Henry]

@KingKuba:

Chris, I saw the question you posted about Germany using the Lightning War ability against the Soviets on the global war game website. I actually have considered doing that, using the medium armor, mechanized infantry, and armored cars. I considered going to Russia’s major factories rather than Moscow so they can not build much except militia. Granted I would need to attack at least 3 different territories which is very difficult, but it is doable. Especially if you do not sign the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and take eastern Poland and maybe even Lithuania for yourself. Of course you leave the West exposed to France and the CW which sucks but it is just a fun thought. I have considered doing it because I want to see what happens and I want the Soviets and the West get involved in a war.

Interesting, that would also certainly be powerful. I’m a bit confused on if the USSR losses their IPP’s upon Moscow being taken. On the Global War site someone said they do not, but on another thread here someone said they do. Do you know? I haven’t found definitively anywhere.

But yes, it’s an interesting thought. I won’t rehash the whole thing here, but taking Moscow in the first turn of invasion would be a big blow, even with the Soviets being able to declare a second capital, and especially if they do in fact lose their IPP’s when Moscow falls. As you point out, it would make the West much more difficult. In my other posts I do point out that this is also situational, and a lot would have to fall in line well for the Axis. It would take some careful planning to pull it off, while simultaneously preparing in the West.

@KingKuba:

I have considered doing it because I want to see what happens and I want the Soviets and the West get involved in a war. Japan can even side with the Allies in order to attack the Soviets I think? Correct me if I wrong, but I could’ve sworn I read that somewhere.

I too would love to see the Comintern and Allies go to war some time. I wonder how often it happens in peoples’ games?

As to your Japan siding with the Allies question, I don’t believe that is possible, but I too could have missed something somewhere.

[Rank Carcass]

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=39893.msg1663107#msg1663107
This has a thread regarding Russia and allies DOW house rule options. We use it every game now.

EDIT to remove failed quote attempt

[A Former User]

The rule for any major power is if your capital is taken, you must give up all IPPs to the bank. Only in the case of France do the IPPs go to the conqueror if Paris is taken, obviously it will be Germany most of the time. But yeah I think I am actually going to try it the next time I play as German/Italy. Might consider getting the Japanese player in on it too if Siberia is looking pretty weak. If it fails then oh well :). Obviously, this requires preparation from the very beginning.

As for Japan being aligned with the Allies, I do not have specific proof that they can be aligned, but technically both Japan and the Allies can be at war with the Soviets at the same time. How they would handle that is up to the individual players.

[Chris_Henry]

@KingKuba:

The rule for any major power is if your capital is taken, you must give up all IPPs to the bank. Only in the case of France do the IPPs go to the conqueror if Paris is taken, obviously it will be Germany most of the time. But yeah I think I am actually going to try it the next time I play as German/Italy. Might consider getting the Japanese player in on it too if Siberia is looking pretty weak. If it fails then oh well :). Obviously, this requires preparation from the very beginning.

Thanks KingKuba, that’s what I thought as well re IPP’s and capitals falling. Someone saying the USSR kept theirs if Moscow fell is what confused me. I’ll be sure to correct them on that point as well!

I think it definitely could be something worth trying. Having Japan help could only strengthen the support. I can go back to the original thread on this topic as well to discuss there, but it would be interesting. While the USSR won’t be done in (with the ability to create a second capital, I mean), they will be severely hurt, and going a whole turn without being able to build troops. While it doesn’t knock them out, I do wonder if it essentially makes them no longer a HUGE threat. This would allow Axis forces to concentrate more power in the west, which would help at this juncture since you will have left it under strength to make this strategy work.

I agree, it’s most definitely a strategy that would have to have been thought out starting turn one. Again, it’s on the other thread, but since the blitz ability expires if not used, you’d have to act quickly to make it work.

@KingKuba:

As for Japan being aligned with the Allies, I do not have specific proof that they can be aligned, but technically both Japan and the Allies can be at war with the Soviets at the same time. How they would handle that is up to the individual players.

Exactly, I know it’s conceivable that they both are at war with the Comintern at the same time, but I think falls short of actual alliance. But you’re correct, that’s where individual players come in, they could essentially have a pact made that says they won’t fight each other and take out USSR. But that assumes they can trust the other to not back stab them as well!  :evil:

[A Former User]

Yeah, I would consider having Italy sacrificing the African front to help against France. This would force the French to have to respect the Italians and prevent them from throwing their weight behind attacking Germany. Italy could still gain VPs by taking French territories or even the Balkans if need be. I will try it out and let you know what happens!

Yeah the whole back-stabbing thing is something to watch out for definitely :wink: