Game Reports 122, 123, 124: Bid Goes Higher and Higher

[simon33]

One of the other things I can recall the Allies needing to do is take the money islands of East Indies, Philippines and Borneo from Japan. If Japan can’t hold these they can’t push that hard into Asia because they can’t afford it.

Moscow falling G4 seems a bit fast though. Aren’t you flying UK fighters to defend West Russia?

Also, I can’t see much talk of Egypt. I think I would bid at least an inf there (probably an art) and now that I think about it I’m pretty sure I was building an IC there. A TT can bring two units to India every turn.

[Black_Elk]

2b) what that’s leading to is me putting all my UK$$ in india.   All of it.   Since there are only 3 spaces, I’m buying fighters for Moscow, almost every time.   That’s why I’m not buying the recommended amount of infantry; I basically get 3 placements of 3 units before India and/or Moscow are about to die

I just noticed this, didn’t catch it on the first read. Is your standard purchase/build with UK 3 fighters in India during the first round? Or even more extreme, purchasing 3 fighters in India for 3 rounds in a row? If so, I think this is a major reason why your Allies can’t find a way to survive past the 4th round. That build is just unsustainable. It eliminates any possibility of a fighting withdraw from India, or propping up the Russians at the center. And when Japan finally comes crashing into the South Asia, the center collapse would be practically instantaneous, rather than developing over a couple rounds. India needs to stack 3 ground ASAP, or I don’t see any serious way that the Japanese push can be stalled for long enough to do anything as Allies. You’d have no way/time to bounce fighters back and forth between the Eastern front. Sz 36 coverage doesn’t get you as much, because you can’t really deadzone it and preserve a landing spot, if Japan just pushes ground out of sz61, and then comes heavy into Burma and Sz36 at the same time. Then what is UK to do, if it takes a hit on the IJN it has to return for landing and then won’t have enough fodder to sustain a serious combat (Japan can trade infantry/art for fighters, since they’d have the numbers advantage.) So I’m guessing you have to both run away with the fighters, and risk seeing any ground in India just get trapped. Even a move to Persia would be impossible, if Japan has their transports ready to roll, and a gang of Japanese aircraft and bombardments already in line. I don’t know, best I could recommend is to try the 2 art, 1 inf,  India, and 2 fighters out of UK. Or 3 tanks in India, and 1 fighters out of UK (and just send your tanks to Russia if you have to)… or something along those lines, because I just can’t see how 3 fighters in India works out. Even in full KJF conditions India still needs a gang of fodder. No way for the US to get an edge, if Japan knocks India out with a quickness.

Or maybe this was just the one game? I honestly think bombers can be interesting if you’re trying to just hunt the IJN with UK and aim to either lose India to somehow smoke the Japanese fleet, or else fly the bombers over from UK. But still gotta stack the ground at India as much as possible.

[taamvan]

Hey BlackElk,

There isn’t a reason to put anything on the UK home square.  I cant keep any navy alive up there.  I cant fly planes over from London because there isn’t a safe landing space anywhere.

This is just leading to putting the highest possible value units on India.  I only get 3 turns of build no matter what it is before Japan comes in to destroy me, whether that’s 9 extra infantry or 9 better units, it still falls.  The threat of the planes actually allowed me to attack an isolated BB that came down to attack me.

Eventually, the planes could go to Moscow, but again, it doesn’t really matter what is in Moscow or what buys took place, Moscow falls on G4 every game.    No mix of USSR or UK buy changes this outcome.  This with a higher bid than most players are using.

Think the only solution is to play you and Argo on AAA and see how your play differs in the first 4 turns.

There has got to be something different going on in your guys games that the Allies even last 6+ turns or have any choices.  I don’t know what the Allied moves are that change the calculation, but after playing a couple of games of G40, I’m getting tired of this edition in any event.

[jonathan.meyer84]

@taamvan:

There isn’t a reason to put anything on the UK home square.   I cant keep any navy alive up there.

Hi taamvan,

I know I’m late to this party but…if you put a carrier and two destroyers in SZ 7 and land the two fighters you start with onto that carrier at the end of England’s Turn 1, Germany is able to achieve all of its other highly desirable objectives for it’s Turn 2, destroy your navy, and not have the Luftwaffe completely devastated as a result?

[taamvan]

Seems like a few subs and all his air would come to the party with me having only 5 hits, but its worth a try, maybe it gives him too many things to do (seems like sinking the fleet would be highest priority for him)

[baron Münchhausen]

What Germany built?
Only Tank or Infantry and Artillery?

You need to invest into Atlantic as soon as possible, so Germany have to commit and loose Fighter on UK’s boats and Fgs.

US Fighters and ships will help, when ready R3/R4 to throw all you can in water.

My UK India is minimal (Grounds only).

[jonathan.meyer84]

In your next game 22 bid game and in addition to this move as the UK, you might spend the bid on 1 fighter and 4 infantry for Russia (all placed in Caucus).  Russia Turn 1 all Caucus forces move into Ukraine along with your other fighters and all the tanks that can get there.  Everything else that can make it moves into West Russia (except for 1 infantry which stays in Leningrad to prevent German blitzing).  England does what was described above for its Turn 1.  The US builds an East Coast carrier (and puts its already built fighters on it) along with some other surface ships and transports.  Assuming England’s navy is not destroyed, it moves it’s fleet to Morocco’s coast Turn 2, joined by the US fleet on America’s Turn 2.  Both England and the US build more surface fleet and transports Turn 2 because they will be separating their fleets and need to be able to operate independently on Turn 3, with England focusing primarily on the North and the US focusing primarily in the Mediterranean.

[Black_Elk]

It’s clear that something is up with the management of the Eastern Front. Need to fix that issue before trying other stuff with the bid for UK etc.

When you say there is no safe place to land fighters built at UK, this the first thing you need to address.

Try this, bid 12 for Russia.

1 inf in Karelia, Arch, Russia and Caucasus

West Russia is then 12 inf, 2 artillery, 1 tank =100% odds to the attacker with an average of 12 units remaining. (Plus 2 more hitpoints from your aaaguns on non com.)

Note, that there is no need to leave anything behind in Karelia, as the factory itself is a blocker.

Ukraine is then 4 inf, 1 artillery, 3 tanks, 2 fighters = 99% odds to the attacker with an average of 6 units remaining.

If you do that there is no sensible counter attack for Germany against W. Russia on G1, even if they’re trying to lose the entire luftwaffe in the attempt. Defenders odds (vs everything the Axis have in range) are still 90%, with an average of 7 units remaining.

You can then continue to stack W. Russia again the following round with 7 more hitpoints from Russia and 2 more from UK fighters (plus the Flying Tiger, or British Pacific fighter if desired). There is no way for Germany to break that on G2, even if they bought nothing but tanks on G1. So you are free to land fighters from UK again. You do this every round, until Germany has enough hitpoints and attack power to overcome your stack. No point in withdrawing prematurely, since the fighters from UK will overcome Germany for several rounds, until Japan can threaten the rear.

Everything else should really be secondary to the Eastern Front, but if you have a bid of 18 or more, that gives you plenty to add another hitpoint to Egypt or India or Szech etc. to shore up your position elsewhere. Or if you don’t trust in the overwhelming odds above, then add artillery and tanks instead of infantry to the Russian bid. It will be a total blowout in W. Russia, with a clear advantage to the Soviet defender afterwards to hold the tile.

I really think you need to try this approach before messing around with UK ships, because all those bids assume that the Allies are able to manage the W. Russia defense.

UK should not be considering ships so early in the game. You need a minimum of 2-3 rounds purchasing fighters in UK and ground for India before anything like that is on the table for Allies, because the US will not be ready to do anything of consequence in the Atlantic until the 3rd round.

There are of course other options for the Eastern Front depending on what bid rules your group uses. The suggestion above assumes you are restricted to 1 bid unit per territory/sz, and only in spaces that already house a unit belonging to your nation.

Ps. Think about it like this…
4 additional inf and 2 additional fighters from the Allies each round, is enough to back down 6 additional tanks from Germany at roughly 50/50 odds. The newly purchased Allied units are only 1 move from the territory in question, whereas German tanks are 2 moves away. This means you have time to see the Germans coming and match them with whatever is required. As the defender you really only need 1 extra hitpoint to ice it. For example…

+5 inf and 2 fighters = 7 hitpoints, with 18 defense power, worth 35 ipcs
+6 tanks = 6 hitpoints, with 18 attack power, worth 36 ipcs.

The defendinf infantry+fighters will win against the attacking tanks 3 times out of 4, with both fighters remaining. Only a reckless Axis player would try to press those odds. So it’s just a matter of adding enough extra hitpoints each round to overcome the tank drive and you can just sit there, staring them down.

I’m assuming it’s tanks you’re facing? Because if it’s artillery then it should take twice as long for Germany to get in position. Takes 2 rounds for German artillery (purchased the previous round) to even reach the border of W. Russia.

[simon33]

I can recall landing UK fighters on a US carrier in the Atlantic. Perhaps to save money for other units US1.

USA can catch fighters from E USA in SZ3,7,8 but not SZ6.

I completely agree with Black_Elk. If you can’t fly UK fighters to West Russia UK1 you aren’t managing the Eastern Front well enough.

[jonathan.meyer84]

As an alternative the US could buy a carrier (or even two) the first turn, load up one itself and have England fly two over on England’s Turn 2.  Then BOOM, on US Turn 2, the carriers move into action.  My preference is to have both England and the US build at the same time, but hey, whatever floats your boat  :-D  (pun intended)

[Black_Elk]

In my view the best way to max a carrier purchase, is for UK carriers to receive US fighters, (as opposed to the other way round.) Doing this gives you a number of exploits.

UK doesn’t have to place the carrier until after the German player has moved, so only Japan could potentially sink the carrier before US fighters arrive to shore up its defense. US fighters can move at their max distance of 4 spaces, and UK can then move the carrier on their own turn 2 additional spaces. Meaning that the US fighters have effectively achieved a range of 6 before their next combat move. This is gamey, but still allowed by the rules.

Trying to do the same thing in reverse with UK fighters on US carriers, and you are sacrificing the movement exploit. UK fighters moving at max range, but in the wrong direction hehe. At some point the US fighters will need to be switched out, as you try to launch them towards Russia (this can create difficulties for landing US replacements, as the fleet moves towards the ultimate goal of sz 5) but at least for the first couple rounds, you’re maxing the fighter movement out of North America towards the center.

I think any British naval purchase early on is pretty ill advised for this map. Even the 3rd round is pushing it, because, if gathering all the starting ships together in the Atlantic, you really want them to converge in sz 13 on the 3rd round. UK can’t really sustain an independent naval purchase without the US fleets to support it on defense, if the German player is paying attention and expanding the Luftwaffe, so this really recommends the 4th round as the earliest opportunity for a Royal Navy expansion. Usually this is the point at which India is either dead, about to be dead, or about to be made irrelevant because Japan has decided to push heavy along the center route instead of the southern route. It is also the point at which Germany should be seriously threatening to push the Soviets back to their capital. So its an ideal time for a redirect on UK’s part.

The only time I can see doing something other than just building aircraft at UK for the first 3 rounds, is if Germany got royally hosed on G1 and presented a major opening for the Allies in the Atlantic. Or if something insane happened in the Pacific, and you have a chance to somehow use a more elaborate India build to kill the IJN.

Otherwise though, the standard KGF opener is pretty cut and dry. Kind of boring for UK/US, just going through the motions.
:-D

[simon33]

I’m thinking about using the planes on the CV to support ground assaults for the UK rather than the US. Too difficult to get US troops across the Atlantic in reasonable numbers.