Hi SS,
here is a more complete files with many sheets for all Dices (you simply select between 6,8,10,12) based on G40 OOB Roster, your Roster, and both ENIGMA-Vann and Reversed ENIGMA.
All you can wish for.
:-D :-D :wink:
EDIT:
I put a more revised file in attachment.
ENIGMA_Vann formula_Cost vs Odds_Roster charts_D6_D8_D12_D10.xls
Thanks Baron.
Will be able to finish game this weekend and start a new game with all the new changes.
As far as the new bomber values will have to see if they go into new game.
@Baron:
I like it very much.
What are your carriers values?
Med. Bomber
A 4d12s @2 ground only every round
A 4d12s @1 naval only every round
D 2d12s @1
M6
C10
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 +1 damage
AA gun D@2H. Bomber
A 3d12s @3 ground only every round
A 3d12s @1 naval only every round
D 2d12s @1
M7
C12
Dog Fight @2
SBR 1d10 +1 damage
AA Gun D@1Since you already played with different number of dice according to ground or naval, you might be able to tell how it is different in game-play, and which is easier to handle.
Here is another alternate way to play with bombersMedium Bomber
A 4d12s @2 ground only every round
A 2d12s @2 naval only every round
D 1d12s @2Heavy Bomber
A 3d12s @3 ground only every round
A 2d12s @3 naval only every round
D 1d12s @3If you try both mechanics, you can tell YG’s team what is most interesting.
Think will try these above values.
Stg b. Stg b
4 @2 .96. 4 @2 .96 Gr
4 @1 .48. 2 @2 .48 Na less over kill
2 @1 .24 1 @2 .12 D less def
H bomb. H bomb
3 @3 .75 3 @3 .75 Gr
3 @1 .25 2 @3 .35 Na better on A
2 @1 .17 1@3 .25 D better
Right column will try. I like the naval changes. You wont see to many H Bombers hitting navy except for US mainly.
First try?
Strategic bomber
Ground Attack: 4 rolls @2 .96. Ground only
Naval Attack: 4 rolls @1 .48.
Defense: 2 rolls @1 .24
Heavy bomber
Ground Attack: 3 rolls @3 .75 Ground only
Naval Attack: 3 rolls @1 .25
Defense: 2 rolls @1 .17
Second try?
Strategic bomber all @2
Ground Attack: 4 rolls @2 .96 Ground only
Naval Attack: 2 rolls @2 .48 Naval less over kill
Defense: 1 roll @2 .12 Less defense
Heavy bomber all @3
Ground Attack: 3 rolls @3 .75 Ground only
Naval Attack: 2 rolls @3 .35 Naval better on Attack
Defense: 1 roll @3 .25 Better defense
@Baron:
First try?
Strategic bomber
Ground Attack: 4 rolls @2 .96. Ground only
Naval Attack: 4 rolls @1 .48.
Defense: 2 rolls @1 .24Heavy bomber
Ground Attack: 3 rolls @3 .75 Ground only
Naval Attack: 3 rolls @1 .25
Defense: 2 rolls @1 .17Yes this first try is in the on going game now.
Second try?
Strategic bomber all @2
Ground Attack: 4 rolls @2 .96 Ground only
Naval Attack: 2 rolls @2 .48 Naval less over kill
Defense: 1 roll @2 .12 Less defenseHeavy bomber all @3
Ground Attack: 3 rolls @3 .75 Ground only
Naval Attack: 2 rolls @3 .35 Naval better on Attack
Defense: 1 roll @3 .25 Better defenseThis will be tried in our next game Sunday.
Allies win with Axis giving in. Allies just keep draining Germany and Italy and was able to hold Paris and then move into Norway which Germany should lose Lengingrad to Russia or US turn. Germany lost rest of navy from Allied planes coming from Paris and landing in Finland and Norway. Even though Japan has Hawaii for that last ditch effort the Axis did have 31 points at end of turn 11 but lost 3 points on turn 12 giving them 28 and not holding for the 30 point turn win and losing at least 2 more points on next turn 13.
The key was US attacking Paris on turn 3. I found a sea zone that the US can Park in and decide up to 5 different ways to attack Europe or Africa. But the key also is German Subs in the Atlantic. Now with Subs A at 5 (Germany Wolf pack NA A6 - also Tech Supersubs A7). This will help Germany in the Atlantic side more do to allies using transports as casualties. Remember if Germany gets there 2 best NA s at game start the Allies will probably not get Paris. But thats the beauty of the game. Not all the same.
Best game so far. First win for the Allies. Axis 2 Allies 1.
New game starts Sunday with trying the new Stg Bomber values for navy attacks. This value is harder on H. Bombers at 3 @1.
This makes you have to have fodder with these H. Bombers if the navy you are attacking has transports and if you are using the “Can take a Transport for a Casualty”. We played it with can take as a casualty and Transport gets a D 1@1. This wasnt to strong for this one battle but it could have. This rule is to strong for transports anyway.
The game before this one we used the transport rule of cant be taken as a casualty but gets a D @2. This was to strong.
So we tried a different rule for this last game. I think next game we will go with can take transport as a casualty but no D @1 roll. Only surviving Transports get a roll of D @1. So will try the happy medium next game.
I do love the values for bombers against navy. I know we are going to use the New Bomber values against navy next game but I need to see if increasing the A value against navy is to high for the H. Bomber.
.png)
Japan had mostly control over Pacific due to US going KGF in game but was still able to recover later in game. They may have been able to do something in the Islands if the game did go on.
Next game I have to try a KJF plan. See how this side goes and Europe. UK can afford to leave Cairo but still keep Italy honest in Africa if they dont lose Calcutta and with US major threat in Pacific will see if the Allies can take a bunch of cities from Japan and then go help the UK in London and Europe side later in game for the victory.
.png)
As you can see game ended with 16 techs but as Ive been stating before its not taking over the games with the NA s and Event Cards.
With the new added value changes to pieces probably going to take some game tests now and the whole group playing to see how more of an affect it has on games. But so far the last game was the best and either side could of won.
Probably if US goes all KGF then Japan will have to decide taking Hawaii sooner is best and or going Africa and Middle East.
Attack
SS out !
.png)
@SS:
@SS:
@SS:
@SS:
@SS:
@SS:
Med. Bomber
A 4d12s @2 ground only every round
A 2d12s @2 naval only every round
D 1d12 @2
M6
C10
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 +1 damageH. Bomber
A 3d12s @3 ground only every round
A 2d12s @3naval only every round
D 1d12 @3
M7
C12
Dog Fight @2
SBR 1d10 +1 damage
AA Gun D@1Tac Bomber : Cannot land on Carriers.
A7 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only.
D5 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only.
M5
C11
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 damage (Air - Naval ports, Train Stations and Oil Derricks)
SBR AA gun only A4
AA Gun D@1Naval Dive Bomber : Can land on Carriers and ground.
A7 Roll 4 or less can pick target with a return shot
D5
M4
C10
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 damage ( Air - Naval ports, Oil Derricks)
SBR AA gun only A4
AA Gun D@1Naval Fighter : Can land anywhere.
A5
D7
M4
C10
Dog Fight @3Fighter
A6
D7
M5
C11
Dog Fight@3AA Gun
A0
D@2 at each plane
D@1 at ea H Bomb, Tac & Dive Bomb
M1
C5Air Transport
A0
D0
M5
C10 Can transport 2 Elites or 2 Paratroopers or 1 Elite 1 Paratrooper in combat and any combination of 2 inf or 1 inf 1 art in non combat.Elite Inf
A4
D2
M1
C3 Build 2 only per turn. NA for US-Italy can build 3 a turnParatroopers
A2-3 A3 FSR only on AMP ASS
D4
M1
C3 Paratrooper Tech- Can air transport 3 ParatroopersSubs
A5 FS
D2
M2
C7Battleships
A9
D9
M2
C15 2 hitsCruisers
A7
D7
M3
C9Destroyers
A3
D3
M2
C6Carrier
A2
D4
M2
C14 2 hitsTransport
A0
D1 plane only if not casualty
M2
C7
ES2 only if Trans is aloneJapan doesnt receive H. Bombers.
This has been updated. April 15, 2018
These values are for next game. We will see if H Bomber A against navy is to strong.
Hi SS,
I’m happy how this game went going.
While I was looking at 2 hits BB and adding 3 hits BB row, I realized I entered a wrong number into your BB values.
Battleships
A9
D9
M2
C15 2 hits
The real number from Enigma-Vann should be: 1.26
K54 (this is the row number, it may be different on your sheet) cell should be written:
*=SOMME(144*C54/12/B54^2)2,62
M54 cell should be written:
*=SOMME(144*E54/12/B54^2)2,62
Since Cruiser is 1.04 and Sub is (1.22), you may find that BB is a bit high at 1.26 compared to best Naval aircraft (0.84) or even a full Carrier (0.85).
Cruisers
A7
D7
M3
C9
Strength: 1.04
So, rising BB to 16 IPCs will make it just a bit higher at 1.11
Battleships
A9
D9
M2
C16 2 hits
Strength would be: 1.11
That way, you keep a small increasing slope: DD (1.00), CA (1.04), BB (1.11)
But still, you may found that 2 hits BB have to be powerful because Cruiser is M3.
As usual, it is up to you.
Have fun tomorrow.
Tac Bomber : Cannot land on Carriers.
A7 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.69)
D5 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.50)
M5
C11
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 damage (Air - Naval ports, Train Stations and Oil Derricks)
AA Gun D@1Naval Dive Bomber : Can land on Carriers and ground.
A7 Roll 4 or less can pick target with a return shot (0.84)
D5 (0.60)
M4
C10
SBR 1d8 damage ( Air - Naval ports, Oil Derricks)
AA Gun D@1Naval Fighter : Can land anywhere.
A5 (0.60)
D7 (0.84)
M4
C10
Dog Fight @3
AA Gun @2Fighter
A6 (0.60)
D7 (0.69)
M5
C11
Dog Fight@3
AA Gun D@2
Looking at your aircraft values, I realized your aircraft are under G40 OOB values.
So, I don’t see why you would not increase Land-Based Aircraft to OOB values, since land-based are at +1 IPC.
Tac Bomber : Cannot land on Carriers.
A8 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.79)
D6 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.60)
M5
C11
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 damage (Air - Naval ports, Train Stations and Oil Derricks)
AA Gun D@1
Fighter
A6 (0.60)
D8 (0.79)
M5
C11
Dog Fight@3
AA Gun D@2
@Baron:
Tac Bomber : Cannot land on Carriers.
A7 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.69)
D5 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.50)
M5
C11
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 damage (Air - Naval ports, Train Stations and Oil Derricks)
AA Gun D@1Naval Dive Bomber : Can land on Carriers and ground.
A7 Roll 4 or less can pick target with a return shot (0.84)
D5 (0.60)
M4
C10
SBR 1d8 damage ( Air - Naval ports, Oil Derricks)
AA Gun D@1Naval Fighter : Can land anywhere.
A5 (0.60)
D7 (0.84)
M4
C10
Dog Fight @3
AA Gun @2Fighter
A6 (0.60)
D7 (0.69)
M5
C11
Dog Fight@3
AA Gun D@2Looking at your aircraft values, I realized your aircraft are under G40 OOB values.
So, I don’t see why you would not increase Land-Based Aircraft to OOB values, since land-based are at +1 IPC.Tac Bomber : Cannot land on Carriers.
A8 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.79)
D6 Can pick target with a return shot. Ground only. (0.60)
M5
C11
Dog Fight @1
SBR 1d8 damage (Air - Naval ports, Train Stations and Oil Derricks)
AA Gun D@1Fighter
A6 (0.60)
D8 (0.79)
M5
C11
Dog Fight@3
AA Gun D@2
Ya. They were your suggestions from a previous post.
Of course, “Can pick target with a return shot.” is not considered here.
Hence, your Land-based TcB can be already at is right values.
However, Land-based Fighter have no such ability.
I know you want to make Land-based over Naval Fighter as much different as possible.
Hi,
here is a revised version according to your updated values.
I corrected the 2 cells on sheet.
I tried my suggestion above on it.
You would have to correct to return back to your original values.
ENIGMA_Vann formula_Cost vs Odds_Roster charts_D6_D8_D12_D10.xls
We raised the cost for Tac and Fig based on the M4 to M5 and the D from Tac D4 to D5 and fig from D6 to D7.
I think only change needed is the Naval fig to D6 instead of 7.
I havent looked closely at planes numbers yet. Ill look at in a bit. Got some time before game starts this morning.
As I said in past trying to get planes more towatds history.
We gave the Tac and Dive bombers that special abilities for single attack on a particular piece in a group of planes.
But if only Tac and Dive Bombers can Attack a AAA gun then being a single plane attack instead of a group of planes then the AAA gets its shot at plane first then Tac or Dive bomber need to roll a 4 or less to kill AAA gun.
@SS:
We raised the cost for Tac and Fig based on the M4 to M5 and the D from Tac D4 to D5 and fig from D6 to D7.
I think only change needed is the Naval fig to D6 instead of 7.I havent looked closely at planes numbers yet. Ill look at in a bit. Got some time before game starts this morning.
As I said in past trying to get planes more towatds history.
Actually, aircraft does not need to change in your game, from a game pace and easy flow, it is better to let them be as they are. It let people get use to units values and don’t need to adjust to too many between each of your game.
Also, if you wanted that aircraft being less OP than G40, you are within the correct cost structure.
What I just realized is that at 10 to 11 IPCs, this high cost makes unchanged combat values (either off or def) weaker strength for Land-based aircraft.
And rising 1 pips keeps a similar strength between 10 IPCs Naval vs 11 IPCs Land-based.
However I forgot to consider the special AAA mechanics thoroughly and the impact of TacBomber rolls being entirely a selecting target roll. This last one might be enough in itself to not make TcB to much OP compared to Naval DiveBomber, which is only 1 to 4 for picking target. Does the difference have an impact ? This is your game-play which would tell.
This the easiest way.
Tac C11
A7 .69 D5 .50
Dive C11
A7 .69 D5 .50
Fig C11
A6 .60 D7 .69
N. fig C11
A6 .60 D6 .60
@SS:
We raised the cost for Tac and Fig based on the M4 to M5 and the D from Tac D4 to D5 and fig from D6 to D7.
I think only change needed is the Naval fig to D6 instead of 7.I havent looked closely at planes numbers yet. Ill look at in a bit. Got some time before game starts this morning.
As I said in past trying to get planes more towatds history.
Because 10 and 11 IPCs are closer to 12 and you are using D12s and benchmark was for 12 IPCs unit, this make rising cost by 1 IPC and rising combat values by 1 pips all off or def strength close to be same.
If I remember, rising Naval Fighter to D7 (still 1 pip below G40 Fg) was because Full Carrier defense was pretty weak compared to all Naval offensive capacity. Giving this additional defense pips was also to compensate for the DiveB capacity to select target. Naval Fighter is a pretty bare unit with no special ability.
@SS:
This the easiest way.
Tac C11
A7 .69 D5 .50Dive C11
A7 .69 D5 .50Fig C11
A6 .60 D7 .69N. fig C11
A6 .60 D6 .60
But you are loosing the distinctive trade-off 10 IPCs is basic 4 move, 11 IPCs is 5 move.
(And a sweet 10 IPCs spot in cost structure.)
It blurs the difference between land or naval and makes Carriers weaker due to +2 IPCs cost increase.
Naval fighting on land will not be less impactful than land only planes.
But historically speaking, not having to be limited by shorter landing and take-off airfield allows for greater capacity.
Between two units with similar function and different cost, I rather keep the same strength but increase combat values (DD, Cruiser, BB balancing), so purchasing option are clean. You get the same per IPCs invested. More IPCs don’t mean stronger, just different combat values so to keep balance.
Otherwise victory oriented people will chose stronger units in most cases.
Like MIs over Tank in G40, because MIs def is stronger, for IPCs invested.
DDs over Cruiser and BBs.
Fgs over TcBs, in G40.
Most of time, it is the cheaper which is stronger, but this extend to even cost of course.
Im just leaving it where its at.
