Lets Talk Atomic Bombs!

@LuckyDay:

if you are going to try the “read exactly what I wrote and not understand what I said” routine to try and divert attention away from the topic or even the points of contention, then what it actually would have said was that there was one bomb that hit both hiroshima and nagasaki, though they apparently were the same city, killing a total of 250,000.   :-D

right, what you said was extremely unclear so excuse me if i did not know what you were talking about

@Imperious:

And I IL, I like your Tech tree Idea, but why do you need stratgic rockets for atomic weapons? the US did not have stratigic rockets to my knowledge.

US did develop rockets but didn’t make any. I find that rockets is one of the primary forms of delivery and both are related in many aspects. Germany for one considered the delivery system as per a V-2/ a4 rocket that was too be retrofitted for mush longer range and carry the atomic bomb. Of course its easier to drop it with a bomber

The other issue is 2 techs are not enough to get the A-bomb i like 3 prerequisites before the A-bomb and a total of 5 is a bit much IMO.

I think requiring 3 specific techs would be so much harder to accomplish than getting any 4 techs as I had earlier proposed that Atomic Bombs would almost never be researched in a game before turn 20.

@Bardoly:

I think requiring 3 specific techs would be so much harder to accomplish than getting any 4 techs as I had earlier proposed that Atomic Bombs would almost never be researched in a game before turn 20.

yah thats also a good point.

How about if you have rockets you can just launch the bomb from three spaces away with out a bomber, like  a normal rocket attack

@Emperor_Taiki:

@LuckyDay:

if you are going to try the “read exactly what I wrote and not understand what I said” routine to try and divert attention away from the topic or even the points of contention, then what it actually would have said was that there was one bomb that hit both hiroshima and nagasaki, though they apparently were the same city, killing a total of 250,000.   :-D

right, what you said was extremely unclear so excuse me if i did not know what you were talking about

hey, all you had to do was ask, it happens for people to not understand concepts, ideas or terms with such a wide assortment of people across the globe.  I’m also available to help with tutoring geography, political science, division, grammar, logic and phonics.

@Bardoly:

I think requiring 3 specific techs would be so much harder to accomplish than getting any 4 techs as I had earlier proposed that Atomic Bombs would almost never be researched in a game before turn 20.

while the 3 techs IL listed very much have connections with A-bomb development and delivery, the randomness of the tech trees themselves could indeed make it difficult to procure.  It might be time to rethink the random role vs focused research aspect of techs to be able to target the correct 3/4 techs.  How badly does the reinstitution of the focused development from AAR change the game of AA50 when included is a question that comes to mind. 
  The thing with any 4 techs is that you could get naval shipyards, paratroopers, super subs and radar, and really have no delivery system like with rockets and heavy bombers that we have discussed being used in connection with the bombs.
    or could a normal bomber deliver a reduced capacity bomb until HBs or Rockets are developed?

if i punched the numbers in correctly, it’s like 16% chance of a 6 with 1 die, 30% with 2 and 49% with 3, using LL each turn, then similar numbers with the tech trees being random.  if one were to add 1 die each turn, it could take quite a while to guarantee the correct 3 or 4 techs (16 turns there-abouts)
  with the trees, it’s like 16%, 20, 25, 33, 50, lock.  with LL, you might well need 4 researchers to lock up a tech first round, then still take several turns to get the right one.

@LuckyDay:

have you seen pics of hiroshima or nagasaki (like the one I attached)?  those were one bomb, one city, quarter-million dead, several kilometers in all directions from ground zero obliterated…

fine, explain to me how this paragraph makes sence

I believe it is unclear and saying something that is untrue

Do you beleive it is clear or saying something that is true?

I think my buying tech dice rule is simple enough (inspired by Revised Tech rules).  It makes A bombs hard to get, requires other techs, and doesn’t mess with the tech charts.

@Imperious:

And I IL, I like your Tech tree Idea, but why do you need stratgic rockets for atomic weapons? the US did not have stratigic rockets to my knowledge.

US did develop rockets but didn’t make any. I find that rockets is one of the primary forms of delivery and both are related in many aspects. Germany for one considered the delivery system as per a V-2/ a4 rocket that was too be retrofitted for mush longer range and carry the atomic bomb. Of course its easier to drop it with a bomber

The other issue is 2 techs are not enough to get the A-bomb i like 3 prerequisites before the A-bomb and a total of 5 is a bit much IMO.

Hitler’s “Pineapple Bomb”

The time is May 1st (May Day) and the year is 1944. The world’s first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile streaks through the earth’s atmosphere at the fantastic speed of 3,440 miles per hour! It is flying too high and too fast to be intercepted. This is the V-2 “Vergeltungswafte” revenge weapon, and the swastika is proudly displayed on the tail fins. For this is Adolf Hitler’s ultimate weapon to win World War ll quickly. The warhead is a bomb about the size of a large pineapple. However, it is capable of mass destruction, killing several million people. Believe it or not, this is the world’s first Atomic bomb! When the United States dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan, around 140,000 people were killed. But Hitler’s atomic bomb would wipe out at least eighteen million people! For it is headed to one of the most populated metropolitan areas in the world. The destination for this guided missile is 74.00 degrees longitude and 40.45 degrees latitude. A captured German map shows that this is Delancy Street and he Bowery in downtown New York City! But you say, this never did take place, however, most people do not know that it came within a hair-breadth of happening. A German scientist had already developed a ballistic missile called the “Peenemünde” V-2 rocket.  It was 46’ 11" high, 5’ 5" in diameter. As previously stated, the maximum speed was 3,440 mph, and it carried 2,150 lbs. of high explosives. Six thousand of the V-2 missiles were manufactured, and most were dropped in and around London, England. Thousands of lives were lost, and much of London was destroyed. One of these V-2 missiles was especially rigged, to carry the first atomic bomb as soon as it was finished.

Dr. Kurt Diebner was head of the German Nuclear Research Program. To make an atomic bomb, energy is delivered from an extremely rapid nuclear chain reaction, in which heavy nucleus or uranium are broken down. (This is known as nuclear fission.) Dr. Diebner’s team needed to process uranium U-238 to separate the important fissionable U-235. They decided that “heavy water” would be the best way to slow down neutrons, so they could split uranium nucleus through fission. Heavy water is composed of heavy particles of hydrogen and oxygen. It was very scarce, produced only at a hydroelectric plant in Vermork, Norway. Then it was shipped by rail to Germany. We were aware and very concerned about the progress Germany was making with their atomic bomb. As soon as the water factory in Norway was discovered, we began to bomb the plant. This kept the production of heavy water to a trickle. Finally the entire plant was completely destroyed by air raids. This was the most significant reason why Hitler did not drop his atomic bomb on New York City, before we dropped ours on Japan.

So, in light of the “Lets Talk Rockets” thread, should we add a third tear to the Rocket tech, an upgraded V2 or “V3” that has a range to cross the Atlantic?

Atomic Bombs could only be produced in certain laboratories, so I thought of a better way (perhaps) to do this Atomic Bomb Tech.

Chart 3 - Nuclear Research – You may roll on this cart from Turn 1, but you get the techs in the order that they are in instead of being random.

1. Nuclear Research Lab - You may now purchase Nuclear Research Labs.  Each one costs 15 IPCs to build, and may be built on any territory which you control.  If the territory is captured by an opponent, then they both gain control of the Lab and gain all of the Nuclear technologies which you have researched up to that point.  Yes, I do understand that this adds another piece to the game.

2. Atomic Bomb – Each of your Nuclear Research Labs may now produce 1 Atomic Bomb per turn.  These have the following stats.

Atomic Bomb
0    Attack
0    Defense
0    Movement points – may only be moved by bombers, transports, destroyers, cruisers, and/or battleships during the non-combat move phase.
7    IPC cost

3. Atomic Bombers - Your Bombers may now perform Atomic Bombing Runs.

Atomic Bombing Runs – Any of your bombers which started the turn in a territory containing an Atomic Bomb may, during your Combat Phase, load 1 Atomic Bomb and perform an “Atomic Bombing Run” on a territory.  This Atomic Bombing Run may either target an IC or it may target units.  Ignore aa fire for the purposes of Atomic Bombing Runs.

1. Against ICs:  roll 4d6 – The 3 highest dice’s total = total normal damage counters applied to the IC.  The fourth die’s total = total Permanent Damage Counters applied to the IC.  For each Permanent Damage Counter maximum production value of the territory is reduced by 1.  (The territory may never have more than half (rounded up) as many Permanent Damage Counters as the IPC value of the country.  (i.e. Japan may never have more than 4 Permanent Damage Counters on its IC, but India could have up to 2 Permanent Damage Counters on its IC.)

2. Against units:  Roll 1d6 - that many units are destroyed.  {More than half (rounded up) of the units in the territory may NOT be destroyed by 1 Atomic bomb in this way.  (i.e. if a territory has 9 units in a territory, and you roll a 6, then you only destroy 5 units.}  This use can only be used in strafing attacks.  i.e. You can’t do this along with land units attacking a territory, but you could have other air units attacking or even other Atomic Bombing Runs attacking the same territory.

Atomic Rockets – Your Rockets may now perform Atomic Rocket Attacks instead of their normal rocket attacks if you so choose.  (Obviously, if you don’t have the Rocket tech, then this tech is useless to you.)

Atomic Rocket Attacks – During your Combat Phase, choose a territory up to 3 squares away from the rocket.  This Atomic Rocket Attack may only target ICs.

1. Against ICs:  roll 4d6 – The 3 highest dice’s total = total normal damage counters applied to the IC.  The fourth die’s total = total Permanent Damage Counters applied to the IC.  For each Permanent Damage Counter maximum production value of the territory is reduced by 1.  (The territory may never have more than half (rounded up) as many Permanent Damage Counters as the IPC value of the country.  (i.e. Japan may never have more than 4 Permanent Damage Counters on its IC, but India could have up to 2 Permanent Damage Counters on its IC.)

@Imperious:

So i propose we just add a new forth category of  Atomic research level 1, 2 and 3. 1 and 2 do nothing and 3 gets you the bomb as long as you have one additional tech that becomes ‘the delivery system’: The cost of each research could be altered to 8 per or 10 per due to the high costs of this research.

Heavy bombers allows the delivery system to be by the bomber

Rockets allows you to shoot the A-bomb as per rocket rules

Heavy Artillery can also be considered as a delivery system

Also forgot to mention AA guns should have no effect on bombers dropping the weapon. The altitude required to drop such a weapon is way out of the AA gun range, not to mention the rules is you can only build one at a time and to lose it would be a huge waste.

yes, these are good research rules. I love atomic artillery.
Atomic Bombers should be able to be shot down by interceptors though, right?
and 8 IPCs is high enough.

Again here is my suggestion for the atomic bomb stats

Cost: 15, only one can be built by each country each turn.
Movement: Infinitenly across land
can be delivered by advanced artillery, rockets, heavy bomber.

players chooses between military targets or cites if it is in an IC zone. Otherwise it is against military targets
Against Military targets: roll four dice and hits are score on a four or less. After the combat round in which the atom bomb is used the combat stops, and the attacker must retreat unless he has killed all the defenders.

Against Cities: 3dice damage IC temporarily, and 1 D6 damages it permenently.

After an atomic bomb attack, the atom bomb is it destroyed

So Bardoly, question about the rules, i want to make sure I understand the timeline for it…

–if from turn 1 you can research labs, you could potentially get them turn 1–
–turn 1 then you potentially build a lab during buy units phase?
–turn 2 you could research the bomb?, and potentially buy one if successful
–turn 3 you could research atomic bombers to deliver, build them and
–turn 4 drop a bomb…

–i don’t think it’s too long or short, because it’s a very best case scenario for 4 turns to have all that happen.  just want to make i was on the same page.

i think it puts some nice legs to the 1-2-3 levels, the placement of actual lab pieces could be optional i suppose, i could also see the capture giving them the lab tech, but maybe not all associated techs.

@LuckyDay:

So Bardoly, question about the rules, i want to make sure I understand the timeline for it…

–if from turn 1 you can research labs, you could potentially get them turn 1–
–turn 1 then you potentially build a lab during buy units phase?
–turn 2 you could research the bomb?, and potentially buy one if successful
–turn 3 you could research atomic bombers to deliver, build them and
–turn 4 drop a bomb…

–i don’t think it’s too long or short, because it’s a very best case scenario for 4 turns to have all that happen.  just want to make i was on the same page.

i think it puts some nice legs to the 1-2-3 levels, the placement of actual lab pieces could be optional i suppose, i could also see the capture giving them the lab tech, but maybe not all associated techs.

Well, theoretically speaking, you could even do it by turn 3, but the odds against it would be quite high.

Turn 1 - Purchase researchers, get a breakthrough, research Nuclear Labs, purchase and build a lab.

Turn 2 - Purchase researchers, get a breakthrough, research Atomic Bomb, purchase and build an Atomic Bomb.

Turn 3 - Purchase researchers, get a breakthrough, research Atomic Bombers, do an Atomic Bombing Run with a bomber which you already control.  Of course, probably not many territories would be in range for either Japan or the US this early.

I think that you are right about the capture of a Nuclear Research Lab giving them the Nuclear Research Lab tech instead of all of their Nuclear techs to date.

Has anyone thought of having A-bombs destroy IC and aa guns (scorched earth)?  These are the only indestructible units (unless aa gun is on trn and is sunk).

I think having A-bomb destroy IC and aa gun, and having the territory no longer provide IPC and be unable to build a IC or units for X rounds/turns (I use rounds/turns interchangeably, meaning full cycle of countries) would be a great idea but the tech would have to be hard to obtain with a max of one or two per game (sort of like an arms race, the country that gets it first has access to it).

And to stay with OOB rules, we could do a tech tree as some people suggested, needing all three techs: 1) rockets, 2)LRA, 3) Heavy bombers and then unlocking A-bomb tech, requires a roll (cost 10 but not cumulative (one shot), limited to 1 per round) of three dice with all three being the same number (111, 222, 333, 444, 555, 666).

The #'s will determine the cost and length of time needed to build it.

111= 2 rounds, cost of 20, limit of 1 attempt to build it per game, takes up 1 production capacity
222= 2 rounds, cost of 18, limit of 1 attempt to build it per game, takes up 2 production capacity
333= 2 rounds, cost of 16, limit of 1 attempt to build it per game, takes up 3 production capacity
444= 3 rounds, cost of 14, limit of 2 attempt to build it per game, takes up 4 production capacity
555= 3 rounds, cost of 12, limit of 2 attempt to build it per game, takes up 5 production capacity
666= 3 rounds, cost of 10, limit of 2 attempt to build it per game, takes up 6 production capacity

Research and breakthroughs have some luck involved so that’s included in reflected on dice rolls.

So if you are the first to obtain the A-bomb tech, and you roll 111 through 333, only one country gets an attempt at building it.

444-666 means that until there are two attempts to build A-bombs, other countries can try to obtain the tech and build it.

The A-bomb build attempt can be disrupted if the capital of the country falls or the place where the A-bomb is being built falls

• Limitation being, A-bombs can’t be built on any territory with less than 3 IPC value, requires an IC, and a new bomber has to be built from the same place as the A-bomb is being built.
  Also, it takes one extra round to load the A-bomb onto the bomber.  And it has to A-bomb a territory with an IC on it, and in a single run (no stop overs) but is able to expend 8 movement points to get to the target (kamikazi).

@gnasape:

Has anyone thought of having A-bombs destroy IC and aa guns (scorched earth)?  These are the only indestructible units (unless aa gun is on trn and is sunk).

I think having A-bomb destroy IC and aa gun, and having the territory no longer provide IPC and be unable to build a IC or units for X rounds/turns (I use

this idea has come up,
but it is not refelctive of what atomic weapons were historically.
Even if each bomb piece represented 6 bombs, it would not permenently take out all of a countries industrial production and capacity for six months.

IL,

I added the one about extra round just in case people deemed it too powerful.

@Imperious:

ok this a very complicated but it seems your saying:

1. get the prerequisite techs as previously outlined.

2. spend 10 IPC for a one time roll ( it does not continue every turn) and you need to roll 3 dice getting all the same number ( like a combination to a lock…kinda)

3. once you obtain the required pips, you pay the additional IPC and you will get the bomb in X turns.

Also, it takes one extra round to load the A-bomb onto the bomber.

also why is this a rule? Where do you see the need for such a rule? Each turn is 6 months, so how does it take that long to put the a-bomb under the fuselage of a bomber?

@Emperor_Taiki:

@gnasape:

Has anyone thought of having A-bombs destroy IC and aa guns (scorched earth)?  These are the only indestructible units (unless aa gun is on trn and is sunk).

I think having A-bomb destroy IC and aa gun, and having the territory no longer provide IPC and be unable to build a IC or units for X rounds/turns (I use

this idea has come up,
but it is not refelctive of what atomic weapons were historically.
Even if each bomb piece represented 6 bombs, it would not permenently take out all of a countries industrial production and capacity for six months.

It did end the war for Japan.  It did sap the will to fight seeing mass destruction caused by the A-bomb, you can rebuild factories but can you easily rebuild the will of the people?  IC and IPC’s to me represents the war commitment of the whole country.  I think this has enough hoops that by the time when you get it it’s games over for Axis or Allies.