Escort service

@Adlertag:

@Craig:

It didn’t make the OotB rules because of my (and others) dislike for it.  There were others that strongly wanted it.  I didn’t (and still don’t) think that this is the way to fix the SBR rules.

It doesn’t fit the level of the game, unlike the level of A&A Europe and Pacific.

Craig

You are the reason this game is broken ? Man I will smite you 3 times every day. Now I better understand why you are not a playtester for A&A 1942 ed. Totally useless.

Quite a jump to conclusions without bothering to find out if he suggested a DIFFERENT way to deal with it, Dontcha think?

BTW, who changed the thread title.  the original one was perfect - it got a whole lot of us to read the topic and (for those who knew about it) to discuss it, it was funny as hell, but it still made sense when you read the question.

The new title doesn’t even make sense.

title was fixed. typo.

I only see “space project” whatever that is.

If you had to change it, why “Air Service” ? Why not “Escort fighters” like in the rules from A&A E and P. ?

Thread locked.

@DarthMaximus:

Thread locked.

funny, I can post in a locked thread

Even in this scale, the game could use convoy zones, escort and intercepting fighters, and be free to attack any neutral. This would not make the game more complex than Techs, special China rules and NO’s do to Anniversary ed. Now I must wait 8 hours to smite you again.

Europe and Pacific have the same rule for units of A&A. For example fighters move 4, attack at 3 and defend at 4. Bombers move 6, attack at 4 and defend at 1. Ships move of two and have same attack values of Classic. Tanks move of two and they may blitz the same way he tanks do in A&A (and in Revised) without considering the level of the game.
DD and artillery are not present in Classic, they have been introduced in Europe, and then have been used also in Revised. So for the great part the rules are almost the same.

If we speak of convoy zones and strategic bombing escort, however, we have to consider the different scale or level of the game? This is inconsistent.
First because A&A have no scale. There is no time scale, no terrain scale and no units scale. A infantry miniature is “a infantry”, it is not a division, or an army, or a squad. Is a generic unit of infantry. A turn is a turn it is not a day, a month, a year or the entire conflict. Territories are defined without any consideration of terrain and movement. (other games thet uses territories have few great territories in plain zones and a lot of small territories in mountainous zones)
Second because there are rules that are already used in Pacific and in Revised without any scaling. Tanks for example are the same in Classic and in Europe that have different scales. The paradox is that Classic and Revised (that are at the same “level” uses different rules for tanks defense value… why?

I think that strategic bombing with escort rules is a better way of modeling air operations (the need for having a base for escort fighters for example, the need to deploy fighters in defence of the IC is another example). Moreover, convoy zone are a really interesting way of increasing interest in sea battles.

@Romulus:

I think that strategic bombing with escort rules is a better way of modeling air operations (the need for having a base for escort fighters for example, the need to deploy fighters in defence of the IC is another example). Moreover, convoy zone are a really interesting way of increasing interest in sea battles.

The Gencon/Origins tournaments are going to use the CAP rule. Since Larry usually attends Gencon, I will ask him about an official “LHTR” for Anniversary, and the inclusion of this rule in them. I’d like to see it an “official” LHTR type rule rather than an optional rule.

It does neatly solve the bombing problem.

@squirecam:

@Romulus:

I think that strategic bombing with escort rules is a better way of modeling air operations (the need for having a base for escort fighters for example, the need to deploy fighters in defence of the IC is another example). Moreover, convoy zone are a really interesting way of increasing interest in sea battles.

The Gencon/Origins tournaments are going to use the CAP rule. Since Larry usually attends Gencon, I will ask him about an official “LHTR” for Anniversary, and the inclusion of this rule in them. I’d like to see it an “official” LHTR type rule rather than an optional rule.

It does neatly solve the bombing problem.

Agree 100%

I agree that SBRs can become too much of a factor without an easier way to limit them (for either side!)
Bombers are cheaper AND more effective in AA50 than in any previous incarnation of A&A (and I am not thinking about games with Tech)

@axis_roll:

@squirecam:

@Romulus:

I think that strategic bombing with escort rules is a better way of modeling air operations (the need for having a base for escort fighters for example, the need to deploy fighters in defence of the IC is another example). Moreover, convoy zone are a really interesting way of increasing interest in sea battles.

The Gencon/Origins tournaments are going to use the CAP rule. Since Larry usually attends Gencon, I will ask him about an official “LHTR” for Anniversary, and the inclusion of this rule in them. I’d like to see it an “official” LHTR type rule rather than an optional rule.

It does neatly solve the bombing problem.

Agree 100%

I agree that SBRs can become too much of a factor without an easier way to limit them (for either side!)
Bombers are cheaper AND more effective in AA50 than in any previous incarnation of A&A (and I am not thinking about games with Tech)

Right.

There are 3 ways to “counter” bombing.

1. Technology (random, but also can make bombing even stronger with Heavys and LRA)
2. Objectives (by giving Germany more IPC, allowing them to repair and still build max units
3. The CAP rule

The only one of these that “fixes” the basic game (no tech/obj) is the CAP rule. And fixes #1 and #2 arent guaranteed to help, since tech is random and even with more income the Allies get benefits too.

I hope Triple A includes this in the next release. I also hope at Gencon Larry can be convinced to make a “LHTR” that includes the CAP rule (non-optional).

what is the CAP rule ?

@Adlertag:

what is the CAP rule ?

Fighter Escorts and Interceptors: Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.

After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units. This combat is resolved in the same way as a normal combat, with a few exceptions. The fighters have an attack value of 1 (2 if the attacker has the Jet Power research breakthrough) and a defense value of 2, and the bombers have no attack value. In addition, the combat lasts for only one round. After the battle, any surviving bombers proceed to carry out the raid as normal. Fighters participating as either an escort or a defender cannot participate in other battles during that turn. Defending interceptors must return to their original territory. If that territory is captured, the fighters may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attacker’s Noncombat Move phase begins. If no such landing space is available, the fighters are lost.

This should be referenced as the Strategic Bombing Raid escort.

CAP in Pacific is another rule. I have not the rulebook at hand right now so I recall what I remember of the CAP rule.
If you did not move fighters during CM and NCM you may leave them in CAP = Combat Air Patrol, in a Sea Zone adjacent to the island or the the territory where the fighters are present. Such fughters stay in the air during all the opponent/s turn landing at start of your next turn. During opponent turn the CAP fighters are able to stop ships movements and if a sea battle is fought in that sea zone tehy participate.

FYI- I think that all units should have one set of attack value and one set of defend value.

Maybe fighters could cost 6 IPC, attack on 1 and defend on 2 or less, in both regular combat against land, sea and air units, and in SBR against aircrafts. This will make them more in scale with the rest of the units too. Today a fighter unit represent 2000 aircrafts, and a carrier unit represent 4 carriers, and those two fighters can land on that carrier, representing 4000 aircrafts landing on 4 carriers, beat me.

Fighters at 3/4 are too strong. Tanks and artillery was way stronger in the real world. A fighter could drop a bomb once a day if it was sun, but the artillery piece could barrage all day and night every day summer and winter and snow and rain, and because of this fact 60 % of all casualties was made by artillery.

@Craig:

Romulus- Yes, CAP is different from Escort/Interceptors.

My point about having special rules like the E/I is that fact that the fighters have one set of attack and defend numbers for regular combat and then a second set of numbers for the E/I combat.  That is what I am talking about when I say that the game should be kept on a simpler level (KISS system).

@Romulus:

If we speak of convoy zones and strategic bombing escort, however, we have to consider the different scale or level of the game? This is inconsistent.

Having the two sets of numbers is inconsistent.

Also, the distances on the map are very different from A&A:E and A&A:P than they are in AA50 and Revised.

I agree that the SBR system in AA50 is screwed up, but I don’t think that E/I rule is the way to fix it.  Squirecam and I have been arguing this long before this hit the light of day for the rest of you.  And we will continue to do for a long time after this.  It is just the nature of our relationship. :wink:

Mmm  :? … having two set of numbers is naturally a complication, I agree, but we already have this problem.

Strategic Bombing is already different, because in ordinary combat bombers hit on 4 while in SBR they do a damage to the IC equal to the value rolled. In this case we have not different set of numbers but we have a different interpretation of the dice rolling.

Before Anniversary was released I read some anticipation on SBR and I erroneously believed that it was changed: if the bomber hit (rolling a 1 or a 2 or a 3 or a 4) inflict 1 damage marker to the IC.

Maybe doing SBR in such way is another possibility of going in the direction of the KISS principle, the bomber rolls the dice in a single way instead of having two different kind of attacks and maybe this could fix a little the SBR problems. (However it could make the SBR too weak)

Back to the escort rule, I do not look at the escort/interceptor rule as a way to fix the SBR but as a interesting form of air combat that may add fun to the game. If it could help in solving SBR problems then it may be even more interesting, but I am not considering Escort/Interceptors for such reason.