National Objectives vs Balance

I think it would be possible to play without NOs and without a bid if you convert Italy and all it’s holdings and units to Germany.

Which leads me to my final point; to discuss balance in AAC and AAR is good fun debate…BECAUSE…they have endured such rigorous play testing.  But to discuss the balance of AAA is premature to say the least.  As Craig Y Yope said on this same subject on Harris Game Designs forum, “give it time (before we/you decide if AAA is unbalanced)”.

Over time patterns WILL emerge (perceived and/or “proven”).  And when that happens, I would advise using a bid over any rule changes.

Yes.  I agree.  At least 100 games of A&A:50 need to be played before we start settling on whether or not this game is balance and if so, which side it favors.  And when this happens, you’re right, bidding or some other change should be incurred to the game.

Based on my observation of about 50 games, I will say that the Axis (with NOs) “appear” to have the advantage in 1941.

Nah, with over 100 games now, and I stopped counting a while ago, I can say that currently it looks really balanced with National Objectives in 1941.

In 1942 I have only played half a dozen games, but it seems to be that the allies are royally screwed in 1942…most people only play 1942 once or twice (however long it takes to have a turn at allies) and then go back to 1941.

Maybe the allies need a bid in 1942, or maybe we don’t know a good strategy for the allies other than surrender if the German player will pop for pizza, beer and condoms?(For most of you, I think pizza and beer only.)

Nah, with over 100 games now, and I stopped counting a while ago, I can say that currently it looks really balanced with National Objectives in 1941.

Generally, one person logging a hundred games of A&A is not a good statistical sample.  Generally speaking. 
I much prefer actual tournament data, with summarized field reports.

In 1942 I have only played half a dozen games, but it seems to be that the allies are royally screwed in 1942…most people only play 1942 once or twice (however long it takes to have a turn at allies) and then go back to 1941.

True.  Though actually, as the Allies I prefer playing 1942.  The Allies may be royally screwed, but at least they start the game with decent hardware (see: Russia and USA Pacific).

Axis?  No contest.  1941.  I love taking over territories and placing my own Control Markers.  None of this, “I start the game with half the territories already conquered”

Maybe the allies need a bid in 1942, or maybe we don’t know a good strategy for the allies other than surrender if the German player will pop for pizza, beer and condoms?(For most of you, I think pizza and beer only.)

Ha!

/Cmdr Jennifer

Would be interesting to hear from you on how you find '41 w. NOs to be balanced. Does this mean that USA and UK focus on the invasion of Italy ASAP and then onto France? And support of Russia in Karelia and Moscow with fighters? I’ve tried the IC in India thing with UK but not sure if it worked out. An IC in South Africa really saves you a lot of IPCs in Africa and gives you a reasonable income as UK. Overall it seems that the race to Berlin or Moscow is the name of the game, again.

I haven’t yet played '41 without NOs but with NOs I find it tedious, a bit like an “as if” scenario with Japan having the same industrial might as Germany or USA. I think I’ll find the '42 scenario more attractive in the long run, and probably without NOs. Here’s why:

1. Turn order. Means you can’t attack and make a hole in the Russian front with the Italians to exploit with the Germans. You can also kill off DD blocks in the North Sea as the Axis with Japan & Italy and be able to deploy subs out of the Baltic sea.
2. Set-up. Royal Navy and the Chinese Army is at least adequate and not non-existent as in '41 scenario, and of course US pacific navy as well.
3. Japanese strategy: with one instead of five transports you actually have to pick one target first and focus on that rather than be able to take ALL targets at your disposal. Etc: India, Australia, Alaska?

I also LOVE the optional rules over at Larry Harris Game Design forum, and has just started playing with them! The only other house rule we use is HBMBs attack at ‘5’ (still SBR at 2d6 which is not as horrible when you have interceptor rules).

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/pdf/Anniversary_FAQ.pdf

@Craig:

If it is shown to be a problem one way or the other, then action should be taken to fix things.  Let’s just take the time to properly log the necessary amount of games to legitimately show such a problem exists.

OK, those are questions I have to ask:

• First, I’ll reserve my thoughts on China status and setup and for the sake of this question, I’ll assume the game is 100% balanced
• Second: is a fact that you can kill China with Japan, round 1, in 1941 scenario, reducing them to a lone and last infantery. It doesn’t reduce Japan’s power of taking Dutch East Indies, Philippines or making Pearl Harbour, all at J1

Now the questions:

1941: what is the reasoning to say the game is balanced when you can kill an enemy power (China) in round 1, before even that power gets her first move? What is Japan losing if they kill China round 1 (being the advantages of doing it clear)? Really needs axis this to win?

And now for 1942: you cannot kill China J1, but you can still kill their lone and last offensive unit, the fighter, without losing focus in other areas, J1; it’s so easy that is a no brainer move. What is the reasoning for this? Really needs axis this badly to win? What is Japan losing if they kill the fighter J1?(because the advantages of doing it are pretty obvious)

I too would like that question answered.

I think what Craig Yope is saying between the lines is that the NOs ended up being more pro-Axis then they were from the beginning. Applied to the China situation this would mean that Japan would lose momentum if it attacked say Yunnan since then India would be less threatened and an IC could be put into operation there with long-term drawbacks. Now with NOs as they stand this doesn’t really matter since the Japanese economy gets so strong it will dominate India anyway sooner or later but I don’t think that’s necessarily the case without NOs or with less Axis-biased NOs.

WOW!  :-o  :?  :roll:

Cmdr Jennifer
…with over 100 games now, and I stopped counting a while ago, I can say that currently it looks really balanced with National Objectives in 1941.

You say you have already played over 100 games (you lost count?).  :? You must play this game everyday or something; didn’t it just get released on November 18th 2008 or something like that (69 days or so ago?)

100/69=1.45 games a day
Average game length/time to play a single game = 4 to 7 hours (rough guess…since I’ve only played 4 complete games of AA50 so far)

Total estimated game time for 100+ games = 400 to 700 hours (rough guess)

69 days x 24 hrs a day = 1656 total available hours since the games release date.
1656 hr – full time job (including travel and lunch time 11 hrs a day for 9 weeks) 495 +/- hours = 1161 hours left
1161 hrs – sleep (8 hrs a day) = 552 +/- hrs = 609 hours

609 hrs left for “free time” in 9 weeks since the game release (for the average Joy/Jolene to have a “life”.)

Granted, I didn’t take into account the thanksgiving and Christmas and new years holiday time or available vacation time, but come on…100 +/- games since November?  Maybe just a wee bit exaggeration on how many games of AA50 have been played…especially if your using those condoms you mentioned earlier…and from you picture (if that’s you and not you “so much cooler online” picture),  you don’t look like the type of girl to still be living in your moms basement.  Do you not have a job (or family) or something?

Maybe you’re playing non stop marathon (no sleep) gaming weekends…  :evil:
10 weekends x 2 days each weekend = 20 days x 24 hrs a day = 480 hrs / 5.5 (average single game length) = 87 games leaving 13 games to play over the holidays.  Yea, yea,  :wink:  that must be how you have been able to play 100+/- games since November.  Which could explain some of this debate (already) over “balance”; maybe some of your (our)  determinations to date of what is skewed (unbalanced) in the game could be from a lack of sleep  :wink: (and “relations”  :-o …because I still cant figure out when you would have had time to play all those games and still have time to use those condoms…  :-P and have a job/life).

I’ve only had my game since December 18 (5 weeks), and I’ve played 4 complete 1941 games, .25 of another 1941 game and 1 other 7 hr 1942 game that ended with out a winner because we ran out of time and I had to stop playing at 7:30 a.m.  :cry: to make it home in time to have breakfast and spend the day with my wife.  :-D And that last game was the 2nd game played that night; we started at 4 pm the night before with a 1941 game that ended at midnight and than started the second game.

:| Sorry to mess with you like that Cmdr Jennifer (ok…  :oops: maybe I’m not…and I’m just saying that so I don’t look like a total jerk), but again, until this game (like AAC and AAR) have been rigorously played; discussing game balance on it is premature to say the least.

I don’t doubt that there will be patterns that will emerge that show a certain ADVANTAGE or DISADVANTAGE for a certain Power or Side in the AA50.  I’ll bet they will be very similar to the ones that have emerged in AAC and AAR.  After all, ALL the A&A games ARE BASED on the geopolitical history of WW2.  And any game that is based on history is BOUND to have “imbalance”. I just wish we could agree to call it something other than balanced or unbalanced; talking about these games like they ar “broke”.  The A&A games are not broke; they are just based on history.

I don’t know what (if any) history books (shows) everyone is reading (watching) but the “BROAD BRUSH” history of WW2 was that the Axis DID have the advantage at the start of the war (especially when Russia was more “partial” to the Axis than the Allies…1939 “joint invasion” of Poland) and the Allies GAINED their advantage(s) over time to a LOT of various factors (diligence…and some luck in battle to name just a couple).  :-D

So far, ever single game of A&A that I’ve played since classics release has been in keeping with that history. (the little of it I know).

That’s why if players are ALREADY seeing those “typical/historical” “patterns” they/we shouldn’t be surprised.  If anything we should be praising the efforts of the designer and play testers for doing such a good job with balancing the game WITH history.

Granted this is a game, and part of the fun of a game is to be able to win no matter what side you are playing on.  So, IF EVERY game of A&A played (as it was designed) were to finish with the Allies ALWAYS winning…I wouldn’t want to play it.  I play A&A because I want the chance to rewrite history not replay history.  If I wanted to replay history…I’d just watch the history channel.

So again, if your/we are already seeing similar patterns of advantage/disadvantage emerging in AA50 we shouldn’t be surprised…its WW2 history.

But if your ALREADY debating about playing a certain set up (1941 or 42) with or without NOs because of the beleif that the gaem is “unblanced” (broken), might I suggest that we/you turn towards the bid…once again.  If you want to play the Axis all the time becoause your so SURE that the Axis is the side that is going to win , than give the bid to the allies to offset that personal (perceived) advantage/disadvantage.

But please…can we stop talking about BALANCE as if the game(s) of A&A are somehow “broken”?

The games are not BROKEN…rather they are BALANCED…WITH history.

Funcioneta

Now the questions:

1941: what is the reasoning to say the game is balanced when you can kill an enemy power (China) in round 1, before even that power gets her first move? What is Japan losing if they kill China round 1 (being the advantages of doing it clear)? Really needs axis this to win?

And now for 1942: you cannot kill China J1, but you can still kill their lone and last offensive unit, the fighter, without losing focus in other areas, J1; it’s so easy that is a no brainer move. What is the reasoning for this? Really needs axis this badly to win? What is Japan losing if they kill the fighter J1?(because the advantages of doing it are pretty obvious)

Granted I’m not one of the play testers (or the designer…obviously) but, part of the answer(s) to your questions seem obvious to me.  :-)

Evolution…and…Game Scale.

The game has evolved over time to what it is now by making small changes to the game in an attempt to better reflect history while still trying to keep it in line with its original design and “scale”.

A&A is not/has not/ will never be (hopefully) the type of game that takes into account EVERY stinking little detail of WW2 history.  Its scale is hugely abstract which makes details of history easily lost to playability and personal observations and interpretation.

As far as the China thing, history shows that even Japan believed that they needed to get rid of china first before taking on the rest of the “world” (they attacked in 1937 and some historians would argue that that was really the beginning of WW2 not the invasion of Poland by the Germans in 1939 that everyone talks about being the start of the war.)

So to make the changes to China that have been done just goes to show (IMO) that someone is reading there history books and trying to incorporate that part of history into a playable part of the game.

I quit counting games at 30. That was a few weeks ago. I currently have 8 games of AA50 underway at the moment, 6 on the forums and 2 face to face games. I can easily see Jenn having 100+ games, as we have played quite a few against each other. However since I am mostly an online player and do not attend Origins or GenCon I know my opinion is not worthy of consideration. :roll:

I will offer it anyway. '41 with NOs is balanced. '42 with NOs is a huge Axis advantage. I know the opposite appears true looking at the board but so far in the 7 or 8 '42 games I have played the Allies have not really had a chance. China is not really much more of a speed bump either. The fighter still goes on J1, roughly the same amount of Chinese territories fall, and the few extra infantry are really irrelevant.

I also would like to hear the play testers answer to Funcioneta’s questions, because China in either version is much too easy of a kill.

With Obama as our President, I think we’re all entitled to some transparency. ;)

Come on, what is up with China?  Was this Hasbro’s decision?

a44bigdog
I currently have 8 games of AA50 underway at the moment, 6 on the forums and 2 face to face games.

How the heck do you play 8 games at a time? Do you have 8 game boards?  And even if your ar just gaming on a PC board on line; how the heck do you find the time to play all those games?  Do you not have a job? Family? Friends?..…a LIFE outside of the computer/gaming world?  :?

Man…I thought I was addicted to A&A and WW2 history  :-P …you guys must not even sleep! I hope anyone that games that much at least finds time to shower everyday.  :-o Let me guess, some of you really do live in your moms basement and you don’t have a job…just like one of my cousins boys…he plays world of war craft more hours every week than I work and sleep.  :cry:

I’m sorry, maybe it’s my age but I just find it hard to believe that anyone is able to play games that much.  With that many games being played at one time, you guys must have really high IQs because how in the heck can you keep all the details of each game clear in your heads?  And if your telling me your keeping the details on the PC and just reviewing them every time before you make your moves it sounds even harder to imagine anyone being able to play that many game since the games release because now there’s the extra time required to review the game that you wouldn’t need to do in FTF games.

Call me crazy, dumb, stupid or maybe I am just a really, really, really bad A&A gamer and I just don’t know it, but with that many games rolling around in a persons head (on line or FTF, I just don’t see how it is possible to play all those games at one time with any measure of skill and clarity.

I cant even play 3 games of Texas holdum on line at one time with any measure of skill or clarity (they all just blur together and I cant keep track of which game is which or who is playing certain hands and not player other hands) and that is a very simple game compared to all the details of an A&A game.

You guys are my new heroes!  :-D

Let me clear up some of that for you. I am 39 and have my own house, heck I left home at 16. I only play online on weekends when I am at my girlfriends house. It may sound sophomoric at my age to have a girlfriend, but I was married for 13 years and will pass on repeating that experience. For online games I use battlemap. So when it is my turn all I have to do is open that file to see the board. For my face to face games I also use battlemap to record the status of the game board. That allows me to have more than one game going on my physical game board and keeps me from having to remember where everything is when my cat gets up there and scatters pieces. I have an IQ of 157 but I suspect it does not matter all that much as there are several of us that play multiple games at one time. They are all different and once you look at that map what is going on clicks into place. Me personally I spend probably at most 5 or 10 minutes debating on board conditions for a turn. I also suspect that is a side effect of playing so many games. I don’t have to ponder for ever on end because I have probably already seen the outcome of game moves in games past.

For those of you that have not discovered playing here through the forums I would urge you to give it a try. There are many advantages. Games can last as long as they take. No more trying to play an Axis and Allies game in one night. Games can be found at any time. No more trying to round up players and again find the time to play in one night. A player is also exposed to a wide variety of play stiles. If you game with the same people you are limited in what you see to what they do.

a44bigdog
For those of you that have not discovered playing here through the forums I would urge you to give it a try.

Will do; you make it sound easy and not all that time consuming…surely I can find 15mins a day to play one game.  :-)

Hope you did not take offence to my mamma basement comments…just messing with you… :mrgreen:

@Craig:

what I am trying to say is that we didn’t get enough time to playtest some things (like NOs) to my liking.  And even if we had gotten the time I felt necessary, the WotC types would have probably changed them anyway. :-P

As for the placement of the Chinese fighter, you would have to talk to Larry about that.  :roll:

So, you are saying they didn’t let you enough time to playtest China? Or simply Larry said this?: “the Flying Tigers must die round 1 in any scenario and China must die J1 in 1941. I’ll not change this, test the other stuff”

Any case, I fear you are right and we’ll have to ask Larry about this hidden knowledge  :|

@Craig:

We didn’t have time to playtest a lot of things thoroughly.  And when that happens, you tend to focus on the things you think are more important.  Then again, I understand that you can’t take forever to run through these things.  They (WotC) are running a business and need to get things done.

As for the China fighter, it was way down on the list, if it was there at all.

No, Larry didn’t impose his will and state such a thing.  I just don’t remember us getting to the point where we were really complaining about it.  (That was a year and a half ago!)  Maybe with more time we would have gotten to that point.

I personally didn’t like the placement, but we had bigger “fish to fry” at the time.

Ok, time issues. That’s not for fault, totally true

However, China’s status is a very important item (not only because the fighter, but also for the non-brain killer J1 move). It’s a playing power (even if it’s a minor) and usually almost the only enemy Japan will face in mainland Asia in 1941. That potentially can unbalance the whole Pacific theather

This is very valuable info. Thanks  :-)

I agree.  You cannot blame a man for being honest, under such extreme circumstances, no matter how egregious the mistake appears in hindsight.

The reason we’re complaining is because the rest of the setup is, for the most part, balanced.  You’re right, I’m sure the playtesters focused on much larger issues at hand, like the Eastern Front, which could’ve been easily botched.

With that being said, if the Asia Front is deemed unplayable, could we make suggestions to Larry?  Perhaps move the starting location of the Chinese Fighter.  Even a small change like this would improve China’s odds - no matter how improbable - a lot.

Not to jump on the China bandwagon here, but I still do find it a bit hard to understand how a minor power could be introduced with a ftr in an extremely vulnerable spot (41) and not be accurately tested.  A simple eyeball test of J1 moves says the ftr dies, along with all other boarder inf.  There must have been some thought into the playability of China since the rules have a section on how China can attack.

I can certainly see where in the grand scheme of things China drops way down on the list of things to check but it just seems like J1 was never play tested at all.

I would either move the ftr further inland with another China inf added for cover or removing some J inf to make it unattackable or such a low odds attack that if they try and fail they could be royally screwed.

I’d also remove the restrictions on their movement and give them the ability to enter any China, Japan, or UK territory.  Can’t go into Red (Russia).

Note:  This is not ment as slam on anyone or anything, I just wanted to setup “my view” for Asia.  I’ll freely admit I’m not big believer “historical accuracy” for A&A so I’d probably change a few other things.  :-)

As for NO’s I see them as a potentially reoccuring bid for the Axis.  An opening bid can be lost due to bad dice or placement, but say a 10 ipc adv in NO’s equaling 3 units per turn helps mitigate the all or nothing of some bid placements and helps you potentially recover from bad dice given all the G1-2 and a J1-2 attacks.